I find it hard to believe as she brings home just £1100 pcm.

You’re clearly not getting this.. She should actually be bringing home around £830 pcm (as that’s what it says on her pay slip) if not for the extra element made up to protect from a massive wage cut (25%) which is slowly being phased in over the next four/five years.

You’re clearly not getting this.. She should actually be bringing home around £830 pcm (as that’s what it says on her pay slip) if not for the extra element made up to protect from a massive wage cut (25%) which is slowly being phased in over the next four/five years.

Ah now that makes sense you see, I’d have got it if you said that in the first place.

Yup £830 without any pension contributions is about £11k

I joined the police at 19. Many friends from my youth are earning £40k+ and running company cars. I’ve had a pay freeze for the last couple of years. I’m on £32k and pay 13.1% pension. I have no further education anticipating a job for life. I have no qualifications for the public sector. So getting out is pretty difficult.

It’s not bad. I agree. However I made life decisions based on a contract of 30 years of my life. It is most displeasing to have that changed.

It does however boil my piss when people compare the police to the fire service and ambulance crews.

They both have the option to withdraw and call the police for back up and deal. Last weekend I was first on scene to a stabbing with a sucking chest wound whilst ambulance awaited police intervention. Fire crews will routinely call police to investigate the fire once it has been put out. But we (police) are often first on scene because fire service respond and the police patrol.

In 9 years service I’ve spent 4 months waiting for the results of a HIV test following the intentional attempt to infect me and 6 weeks in plaster following a fractured wrist from an assault. I could be in IT and bring home far more whilst driving an Audi and riding and orange 5….

I won’t get into any more of a rant for fear of my professional standards department coming to visit me. Off duty, nope that does not exist.

Any one that says that enjoy the job is telling the truth. But at the expense of a family life in the context of the nuclear family.

The forces pension ends at 22 years service. That allows a second career. Imagine a’60 year old soldier fighting in afghan. It would never happen

Now lets see a bunch of 60 year old cops preventing further riots in
London. Or even look at what happened in Nottingham. Reference the HOODS book. (Planting an informant)

What other business expects workers to do 30 mins over time every day for free?

MP’s want a pay rise. I just want what I signed up for in line with inflation.

I joined the police at 19…I’m on £32k… 9yrs…

32k is not too bad for a 28 yr old with no formal qualifications

It does however boil my piss when people compare the police to the fire service and ambulance crews.

They both have the option to withdraw and call the police for back up and deal. Last weekend I was first on scene to a stabbing with a sucking chest wound whilst ambulance awaited police intervention. Fire crews will routinely call police to investigate the fire once it has been put out. But we (police) are often first on scene because fire service respond and the police patrol.
wow, they must really appreciate the support and team work you give them… …still since neither require formal qualifications to enter you could always apply. Wonder if your views would be the same from the inside with no power of arrest, no handcuffs, baton etc.

What other business expects workers to do 30 mins over time every day for free?

Well many public and private sector employers so get over it – certainly if you did that “IT” job you think you are missing out on you’d regulalrly find yourself doing more than half an hour ‘overtime’ with no extra pay…

MP’s want a pay rise. I just want what I signed up for in line with inflation.

your contract had an inflation element? doubt it – but if they surveyed police officers I guess they would suggest 30% pay increase like the MPs did…. in reality neither will get it.

If you were good enough

FWIW, these cuts don’t apply to Scotland, where new constables receive a salary of £23,259, which rises to £25,962 on completion of training.

It does however boil my piss when people compare the police to the fire service and ambulance crews.

They both have the option to withdraw and call the police for back up and deal. Last weekend I was first on scene to a stabbing with a sucking chest wound whilst ambulance awaited police intervention.

Thanks for your support, we often get there before the Police and other times the Police are there before us. Comes with the nature of both jobs that one of us will be there first, we’re told to stay back in certain situations yeah but that’s the nature of the job.

Drac. This is my experience. I’ve been doing chest compressions as ambulance crews stand by for further instruction due to an un defined suicide attempt. How scary is some one hanging themselves?

Imagine 999 call a long the lines of person passed out on the pavement. What service would you expect? The police in my area get the first call.

I have no issue with the other services until a comparison is made by an external party. The working relationship between our services is not where it shoulda be and it should in no terms be determinted on an individual basis. No personal offence intended.

The police may have batons, incapacitant spay and hand cuffs etc however this always needs to be used within the law. Your employer may have responsibly for education. Common law is a power available to all.

I gave IT as a tongue in cheek example for STW.

Please feel free to comment about a 59 year old officer attending the report of a robbery in progress or a riot.

At the end of the day when I take off my uniform I’m just like
most STW users. No one likes to be screwed over. But the police service is an easy target.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/risking-a-babys-life-for-lunch

Just to add in 9 years I’ve never had a meal break. I’ve had food during a dull patch but if the shout for service comes in I drop my food. Paid or unpaid. Again policy needs reviewing.

I wouldn’t do their job for £19K.

Still. I note bleakly that the MPs think they deserve more.

Gobsmacking.

This is my experience. I’ve been doing chest compressions as ambulance crews stand by for further instruction due to an un defined suicide attempt.

I’ve been threatened with razor blades, knives and generally violence. How scary is that when you don’t have any form defence or protection.

Imagine 999 call a long the lines of person passed out on the pavement. What service would you expect? The police in my area get the first cal

I don’t believe that at all sorry. Do you know how the 999 system works?

The working relationship between our services is not where it shoulda be and it should in no terms be determinted on an individual basis.

We have a very good working relationship with the Police up here, like you say seems to be down your personal experience.

Just to add in 9 years I’ve never had a meal break. I’ve had food during a dull patch but if the shout for service comes in I drop my food. Paid or unpaid. Again policy needs reviewing.

Yeah you’re right the policy needs reviewed that was what the OP started that thread for. We don’t get those calls when on our break, we don’t even have the slightest of idea they’re happening but that’s discussed on the other thread.

Your post was very insulting people do compare the Emergency services I can see why but your right they’re different. But we shouldn’t have a dig at each other, I have very strong feelings on our friends on the Fire Service but I wouldn’t have a go at them (well not on here), they’re in a different job that they chose one that has different conditions and work loads.

I support the Police losing there there conditions they once had isn’t fair for those currently employed, for new starters it’s different things change.

Lol scotchegg, one of the guys in my team (IT) is 34 but has 15 years experience along with MCITP, VCP, CCE certs and is on £36k and drives a shabby old vectra – you live in dreamland thinking everyone in IT is on £40k+ and drives Audi’s. As for the danger element, sure that’s a valid point and I’m glad some people are willing to put themselves in harms way to help others but I’m guessing that aspect of the job didn’t come as a complete surprise the moment you took the job? How about soldiers, I’d rather be a policeman breaking up pub brawls than going out on patrol in Afghanistan (for likely a lot less money).

I’m not a classroom teacher elzorillo, I’m a self employed guitar teacher. I did three years part time as a classroom teacher and hated it. I’m surprised it is so low-I’m sure my mum earns more….maybe she’s opted out of the pension?

It does however boil my piss when people compare the police to the fire service and ambulance crews.

1) it’s not an unfair comparison – there aren’t many 24 hour operating nationwide state operated services and as you say you do end up turning up at a lot of the same events

2) don’t turn on each other ffs! There’s a world of lobbyists, stockbrokers, accountants, PR consultants, bookmakers, fast food managers, crack dealers and pronographers to slag off before you need to slag off other emergency services dudes.

I’ve just been playing about with a few pension calculators and even with a 13.9% employee contribution, the retirement benefits of the revised police pension still represents an employer contribution of 40%.

So whilst we are having a debate about a “starting salary” of £19K it really should be pointed out that the starting remuneration is effectively £26,600 (above the average national wage) including pension, and a police constable on £35K is actually on £49K a year – the £14K / 40% of employer contribution at this level needs to be compared with the typical private sector contribution of between 3 and 8% of salary.

It’s hard to work out the exact employer contribution as most of the pension modelling tools can’t even calculate the pension investments needed to buy the police pension benefits as a money purchase investment.

Scotchegg I think you may find you are called to a fire after its been investigated by a fire investigation officer from the fire service as you are not trained to do such investigations, after its been established that it was started in suspicious circumstances. as we cannot investigate criminal activity only the causes of fire. thanks for the inter service support anyway always nice to know how the other side think 😉

Now lets see a bunch of 60 year old cops preventing further riots in
London. Or even look at what happened in Nottingham. Reference the HOODS book. (Planting an informant)

The same applies to many doing manual work. fancy putting up scaffold when you’re 60? The difference is that a 60 year old builder hasn’t got a pension to fall back on.

Why didn’t the builder take out a pension?

Oooh ooh as we’re being stereotypical about jobs the builder doesn’t need a pension because of the cash in hand jobs they do.

On a side note the thread made me check something about my pension, it would appear thanks to so many years service I’m currently protected on my pension. That’s 10 years knocked of working life then, so long biatches!

Sorry, come to this thread late, and may have missed some stuff, but……

The real issue is this – what is shocking for the police is that for the first time in a very long time they’re being treated like every other public sector worker. In other words, their numbers are being cut, their pay is being cut, and they’re being expected to work for longer – and they’re being vilified and treated like rubbish by those to whom we are all expected (by them) to tug our forelocks – our masters the well-healed (with private incomes and god knows what inheritances and perks) in government. To this extent – welcome to our world. Congratulations! You’ve just become proletarianised.

Why this is shocking to the police is that for a very long time they have been treated as ‘special’. The 1919-20 police strike so frightened government at the time that they cut a deal – they sacked and blacklisted most of the strikers, recruited new bobbies, and told them – you work for us, you’re the thin blue line of law and order, you can’t join a union but can only have a professional association, but we’ll look after you and treat you better than other workers (who you may be expected at times by us to suppress).

And so it has been.
In the 1980s Thatcher’s government reinforced all this around the issue of the miners strike and other major trade union battles of the time. Hence the stories of Met coppers waving wads at striking miners to wind them up (and they’re not just stories either) and the general culture of police impunity which has grown up, and recently been highlighted by Leveson, the Hillsborough report, etc.

But now Cameron and co think they can remove the police’s special status and treat them just like everybody else – ie badly. No wonder it’s a shock to the poor old cops.

What we do not need, including from too many folks on STW, are snidey mean minded comments about how ‘I’m even worse off than you and you deserve to suffer like I suffer’ etc. Pointless and perverse. Who wants a race to the bottom (ie to make things for most people worse and worse) apart from Dave and his wealthy chums? Can I have the gall to suggest that we all need to come together and firmly challenge Mr C’s agenda? His system’s *** and he wants the folk who get the crumbs to pay for it? Dream on.

onehunnred!

The difference is that a 60 year old builder hasn’t got a pension to fall back on.

he’s quite entitled to take out a pension and pay 13% of his gross salary into it.

Call Me Dave has been ideologically for police reform since being an adviser on the Sheehy Report 20 years ago. Winsor’s ‘independent’ conclusions match Sheehy’s recommendations, and a speech made more recently by CMD when he was still in opposition. Winsor consulted with an ‘independent’ think tank as part of his research. Set up by a tory former policing minister. The law firm Winsor is a partner in brokered a potential mutli million pound deal between police forces and G4S on civilianised police roles.

Whether you like the police or not I agree with the previous poster about a race to the bottom. And I’m not sure how reducing the starting salary reflects their declared aim to professionalise the police service. They can afford to reduce the salary as, like some other public sector or ‘vocational’ roles, job adverts are vastly oversubscribed. Winsor suggested freezing police pay until there is a recruitment problem. They can pay less because people will still do the job, but they might lose a lot of the talented candidates they claim to want.

I’ve got 10 years service in a range of roles and am currently a sergeant. I have a PhD and worked in academia and industry before joining. If Winsor’s reforms had been in place when I joined I could have come straight in as an inspector. Knowing the work we do that is a scary thought, and only someone who hasn’t done it could think to equate it directly with public sector management.

Congratulations! You’ve just become proletarianised.

As a tangent, the guy on the News Quiz (Jeremy Hardy?) made a joke that the reason why Plebgate so upset the cops was because they have always liked to think of themselves as part of the establishment, so it was a bit shocking for them when whatshisname called them plebs and reminded them they were on the outside of the real ruling class. Mostly a joke but possibly an element of truth too.

Lucky lad Drac I’ve just had my latest prediction thru and I’ve and extra 7 years to do with huge loss of cash. Most of our lot that have less than 20 in are thinking of jumping ship from the scheme

I’m not protected as only got 16 years in so far 🙁

scotchegg – Member
I joined the police at 19. Many friends from my youth are earning £40k+ and running company cars. I’ve had a pay freeze for the last couple of years. I’m on £32k and pay 13.1% pension. I have no further education anticipating a job for life. I have no qualifications for the public sector. So getting out is pretty difficult.

It’s not bad. I agree. However I made life decisions based on a contract of 30 years of my life. It is most displeasing to have that changed.

It does however boil my piss when people compare the police to the fire service and ambulance crews.

They both have the option to withdraw and call the police for back up and deal. Last weekend I was first on scene to a stabbing with a sucking chest wound whilst ambulance awaited police intervention. Fire crews will routinely call police to investigate the fire once it has been put out. But we (police) are often first on scene because fire service respond and the police patrol.

In 9 years service I’ve spent 4 months waiting for the results of a HIV test following the intentional attempt to infect me and 6 weeks in plaster following a fractured wrist from an assault. I could be in IT and bring home far more whilst driving an Audi and riding and orange 5….

I won’t get into any more of a rant for fear of my professional standards department coming to visit me. Off duty, nope that does not exist.

Any one that says that enjoy the job is telling the truth. But at the expense of a family life in the context of the nuclear family.

The forces pension ends at 22 years service. That allows a second career. Imagine a’60 year old soldier fighting in afghan. It would never happen

Now lets see a bunch of 60 year old cops preventing further riots in
London. Or even look at what happened in Nottingham. Reference the HOODS book. (Planting an informant)

What other business expects workers to do 30 mins over time every day for free?

MP’s want a pay rise. I just want what I signed up for in line with inflation.

While you make some good points I think the bit about the 60 year old fighting riots is a bit of a joke – even if you were still ‘on the front line’ at 60 you wouldn’t be in one of the tactical support groups who are tasked with this work.
most of the ‘older’ cops round here spend their days visiting primary schools and checking up on old folk (all very worthy)
what you seem to forget is many other people in ‘challenging’ jobs are also going to be expected to work into the 60’s – my wife is a secondary school teacher, and if things don’t change she’ll be teaching schience to a classroom of 15 year old thugs when she is 65 years old – no option of sloping off to check old ladies window locks or having a sneaky tea at the Waitrose customer services desk (I see him there about 3 times a week)

Teachers have had their terms and conditions torn up aswell – when my wife first started (12 years ago) nobody worked beyond 58/59 – however it now looks like they’ll be still there at 65+ when she gets to that age.

And as for your wages – £32k P/A is pretty good for someone of your age with minimal qualifications + you get paid for your overtime – when I have to get up at 4am to fly somewhere horrible for a meeting, then spend night after night away from my kids, it is regarded as ‘part of the job’ and I don’t earn a great deal more than your £32k…

I agree that ‘getting out would be pretty difficult’ but that is pretty similar for a lot of industries once you’ve been in it for a few years.

I totally understand that Policing is a tough job, and the current ‘package’ isn’t as good as it was for those who are retiring at the moment – however the Police still offers a pretty sound career for people with minimal qualifications, and adverage intelligence (which is the majority of the population)
Anuone joing up now would be straight in on £19K – without the £30/£40k+ his mate who went to Uni will have to pay back.

It does however boil my piss when people compare the police to the fire service and ambulance crews.

That is quite simply arrogant, you’re a public servant same as they are, no better and no worse, though I suspect a paramedic requires formal qualification. I’m in IT I earn 16% less than I did this time last year but I still do my job, I drive a crappy old car not an Audi and most of my salary goes to pay the mortgage and feed my wife and kids.

Self pitying sh!te such as that you wrote “boils my piss”. Whats next you want us to “respect your authority”

IMHO your doing alright for somebody with “no formal qualifications” your pensions gold plated and you get to retire in 21 years. My suggestion is that you do your job and stop whining about it, or take your experience and go work in the private sector…. you have a choice

Lucky lad Drac I’ve just had my latest prediction thru and I’ve and extra 7 years to do with huge loss of cash. Most of our lot that have less than 20 in are thinking of jumping ship from the scheme

Very but I joined the service 24 years ago later this year, it’s that which means currently I’m protected. I though I was then for some reason convinced I wasn’t, I turned 40 the other week and was feeling down about having to do maybe another 25+ years. Now I can go back to my original plan and take a hit and retire before then for a little less cash.

That is quite simply arrogant, you’re a public servant same as they are, no better and no worse, though I suspect a paramedic requires formal qualification.

Early days of becoming a one.

I think the bit about the 60 year old fighting riots is a bit of a joke – even if you were still ‘on the front line’ at 60 you wouldn’t be in one of the tactical support groups who are tasked with this work.

Really? I’ve never been near a “Tactical Support Group” and was on the front line in the riots last year.

Dammit: I told myself I was going to stay out of this one

I think the bit about the 60 year old fighting riots is a bit of a joke – even if you were still ‘on the front line’ at 60 you wouldn’t be in one of the tactical support groups who are tasked with this work.

Really? This is exactly what the government are proposing – all Police officer will soon have to pass an annual fitness test akin to the current PSU test, simply to remain in employment. This will have no regard to age, gender or any previous or current injury. If you can’t pass you will face disciplinary proceedings and, again under Winsor proposals, face the sack. This means that many front line Police Officers will face losing their jobs as a direct result of injuries sustained… doing their jobs. Ultimately, this means Officers will continue to become more & more risk averse and less hands on; all of this the criminals will exploit.

Really? I’ve never been near a “Tactical Support Group” and was on the front line in the riots last year.

But surely it’s non-police officers that would be best informed about the nuts and bolts of policing? lol

Sad thread this and highlights a what is rapidly becoming a ‘them and us’ situation amongst certain parts of the emergency services.

Your comments are particularly unhelpful scotchegg and I don’t believe many of your comments are factually correct and FWIW in Durham we have an excellent working relationship with The Police. This comment in particular

Drac. This is my experience. I’ve been doing chest compressions as ambulance crews stand by for further instruction due to an un defined suicide attempt. How scary is some one hanging themselves?

Why do you think ambulance crews would standby and await instructions on an undefined suicide attempt? Would you be happy running in to meet someone who possibly had a knife or a shotgun while totally unprotected? You also said “They both have the option to withdraw and call the police for back up and deal” – isn’t that exactly the same option you have when there is a situation you are not sure of and need more officers or a specialist unit/trained colleagues?

As has been pointed out already, there are major differences between what you do, and are expected to do in your line of duty and why ambulance crews are held back from some situations.

We (The Ambulance Service) are part of the NHS (the clue is in the name) and we are neither equipped, trained or have the level of protection a police officer has, as we are classed the same as any other non-emergency NHS employee and therefore have none of the ’emergency’ or work related injury security enjoyed by the Police and Fire Srvices. That protection is not just with regard to equipment but also how we are treated if injured ‘in the line of duty’. It would be very unlikely that a career ending injury would result in a payout and disability pension. Nowadays it would far more likely be “your personal safety is paramount and as you allowed yourself to be in that situation and are unable to fulfill your duties, your employment is terminated”.

There are plenty of people who’ve spend 4 years of their lives studying for a good high quality technical degree who can’t get any more than 19K. Plenty of them work 10-12 hour days, unpaid overtime, high stress jobs too. (not that I am putting forward a “deserving” argument, just that I don’t think the police have it any worse than anyone else).

Sad thread this and highlights a what is rapidly becoming a ‘them and us’ situation amongst certain parts of the emergency services.

Good for the government tho – if you can keep sniping at each other, they’ll have to do less in order to shaft their targets.

we (po-po, babylon) are often the first to incidents that require all or other services just by virtue that we are more mobile and will usually have officers out in cars that can respond more quickly. Ive arrived at house fires, suicide attempts, stabbing victims etc before other services and given first aid, colleagues have gone into a house and pulled the family out before fire service arrived, but only because theyr’e not the sort of people that would stand around waiting and they deemed it safe to do so.

IMHO paramedics/technicians are offensively poorly paid and have to put up with as much abuse as we do without training, equipment, and legislative support. We joke about “Trumpton” being paid to watch DVDs and sleep, but they are a more reactive service than we are (when its Q we can go looking for dodgy ne’erdowells) and have to have resilience to respond as and when an incident occurs. The fire service is massively oversubscribed whenever they recruit, so they too can be paid poorly with the knowledge it’ll have no impact on numbers.

If I’d stayed in my industry I’d be earning (conservatively) between 50% and 100% more than I am now (compared to identically-qualified former colleagues). Fact is I am happy with my decision to change career and have no interest in going back, on a good day I think I have the best job in the world. Doesn’t mean I am happy with us, or other groups, suffering from ideologically-motivated reforms dressed up as a sound economic response in times of austerity.

People have to look past the media spin – The starting salary of a Police officer is irrelevant, and should be seen as merely another way of whipping up emotions at a time when ALL public services are under attack. The Government along with the media are doing a very good job at turning public opinion against the Police Service; every day there is a news story about Police corruption, inefficiency, laziness, stupidity etc. Whilst at the same time there is a lot of coverage over the Pay and Conditions of officers. Naturally, people look at their own salaries and think – “It’s not that bad…”.

No it’s not that bad at all. I’m a Police Officer and I started on a much lower wage than this but it didn’t stop me joining, nor will this reduction stop anyone else, who is intent on a Police career, joining the job. It’s never really been about the money, but rather the feeling that you are doing something worthwhile. However, consider this – CMD has expressed the wish to professionalise the Police Service. He wants to attract the best graduates (without considering how many graduates there already are – 60% of my shift) and make the role of Police Officer closer, professionally speaking, to that of a Dr or Lawyer. He does this by LOWERING the starting salary and making it less vocational and more transient. This is not a recipe for good policing.

To clarify the current position of the Police Service – YOUR Police Service; budgets are being cut on a truly massive scale, the Home Office are telling forces that they have to adopt new practices, focus on this that or the other (irrespective of the problems specific to each force area, city, town or village) – all of which costs money. Training of new legislation, new procedures, forms & equipment needed to fulfil the orders passed down from on high etc. all costs money – money the forces don’t have. So what do they do? How do they do it?
Well, the biggest expenditure of any organisation are its people; they get rid of the most expensive people – i.e. the Police Officers with the longest service, which incidentally, are those with the most knowledge and experience (regulation A19), and then have a recruitment freeze. Couple the recruitment freeze with a wage freeze and then some money is saved. However, there is an unseen and immeasurable cost here – all but the most visible Policing disappears. The cracks have already opened and they’re getting wider.

The starting salary of a newly recruited Police Officer is irrelevant. It is a red herring. It does not matter. It is merely to introduce more division and anger towards the Police. If budgets are being cut to such an extent that all forces are making large scale and sweeping redundancies, the starting salary doesn’t mean anything. Nobody will be earning it.

What other business expects workers to do 30 mins over time every day for free?

Every other business I supect?