Viewing 18 posts - 1 through 18 (of 18 total)
  • Plumbers to comment please…boiler upgrade woes.
  • rockhopper70
    Full Member

    I can’t find an earlier thread I posted about this so excuse the duplication.

    Here is the scenario.

    Plumber offers to remove a tank fed hot water system and replace with a combi boiler, attaching to the existing hot water feed.

    The new pipe work needed was tested and all ok. Existing pipework was not pressure tested “formally”, I’ve, pressurised above normal operating levels.

    System left under mains pressure for around 3 hours, no problems.

    Around five hours later, a hidden connection in a stud wall, part of the hot water feed to the shower mixer goes pop and allows hot water to escape.

    Questions.
    Should the existing hot water feed, all of it, have been pressure tested?
    Was it sufficient to charge it with mains pressure for 3 or so hours and be happy there was no pressure drop?
    Can a plumber be entitled to expect that the hot water pipe to the shower, installed at the same time as the cold water pipe, would be made to the same quality and integrity, ie capable of withstanding mains pressure.

    I have in mind a scenario where the plumber offers the upgrade but does a full pressure test, pops a load of hidden joints then puts a quote in for the whole lot being repaired. Obviously this is better than water damage but is such a situation common?

    gears_suck
    Free Member

    It’s not unheard of to have problems on previously gravity fed pipework after fitting a mains pressure system.
    These situations are impossible to predict and it would be unfair to hold the plumber accountable for a non visible joint he did not assemble. If Plumbers insisted on upgrading every pipe and fitting in a property before performing such works, they would likely never win a quote.
    I always add a disclaimer to this type of job which states any existing pipework incorporated into the new system is not warranted. Most people understand and are quite accepting. Others insist on complete refit but they usually expect the hit financially too.

    northernmatt
    Full Member

    What he said. Most guys I know will not guarantee exisiting pipework. They didn’t put it in in the first place so they aren’t know if it’s going to stand up to it.

    So, has this actually happened or is it all hypothetical?

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    rockhopper70
    Full Member

    Let’s say it has happened……
    An expert for the home owner is adamant that standards required a full pressure test as all the system would be deemed a new system, even the existing, by virtue of it going from gravity fed to mains fed.

    nickjb
    Free Member

    What standards? There are very few things in the building regs other than sewerage stuff. Might be recommended or good practice maybe.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    An expert for the home owner is adamant that standards required a full pressure test

    Fair enough.

    Ask for the details of which standards he’s referring to, and which sections are relevant.

    He’s either making it up, or he’s not.

    (I think he’s making it up)

    rockhopper70
    Full Member

    To quote, the failure to pressure test the system was contrary to the Water Regulations bs6700 and BS EN 806.

    And, the Water Supply (water Fittings) Regulations 1999.

    rockhopper70
    Full Member

    These are deemed to apply on his assessment that the system is “new, altered or repaired”

    Bear
    Free Member

    This comes up quite often and my reply is always when you make a joint in pipe work you don’t do it differently if you are working on a low pressure system. I still solder the join in the same way, or make the push fit joint, or the compression, or the crimp. Therefore it should be expected to with stand mains pressure, a test may show a problem but it might not. It is unlikely to replicate the sharp shock and pressure spike closing a shower or tap can produce.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    bear – that assumes that a competent person put the pipework in place….

    i fell fowl to the same trap when i had a combi fitted to me existing pipe work.

    All the underfloor PEX the previous owner fitted – he had done so without inserts …..which worked fine with the grav fed system for years .

    First i knew of this was when i was sitting downstairs at 5am waiting on a taxi to the airport and the contents of my heating system left via a popped PEX connector…. when i got back and investigated it was noted that none of the PEX had inserts.

    lesson learned – never assume.

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    Should the existing hot water feed, all of it, have been pressure tested?

    Sounds like it was. To a pressure at least.

    Did the customer ask (and pay for) a full test of all pipework to every possible pressure the system might experience to their satisfaction?

    They’ve found the weak link quickly. Pressure tested.

    tomlevell
    Full Member

    On existing pipework testing to mains pressure would be fair and reasonable. 3 hours is excessive.
    As you would be no doubt unable to remove said shower mixer and cap to carry out a test testing beyond mains pressure may have damaged the shower which may not be suited to run to twice mains pressure.
    Twice working pressure is a normal test pressure.
    Working pressure on mains water, let’s assume 6 bar as unvented cylinders pressure reducing valve limits it to 3 bar.
    We would typically test new installs (pipework only, not rads/taps etc) to 8 bar.
    Mind you mains pressure can go up to more than 6 bar.

    fluxhutchinson
    Free Member

    Really the pipework should be pressure tested to 1.5x working pressure.

    I warn all my customers about when changing. As bear has said though. Shutting off of new taps especially the quarter turn or monoblock type would be hard to replicate the pressure surge.

    One of the points here though is if the plumber had tested correctly what if the pipe had blown off then would there still be a complaint?

    I take it this expert is from an insurance company?

    rockhopper70
    Full Member

    Expert is an independent expert.

    The test was simply filling the system and being there for three hours trying to get a digital thermostat to work.
    It wasn’t a forced test, or increased pressure pumped, just the mains supply opened.

    The point is that if it had been tested and popped, there wouldn’t be the damage that was caused.
    Any notional losses or costs flowing from the popped test joint don’t matter at this time.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    The point is that if it had been tested and popped, there wouldn’t be the damage that was cause

    No guarantee the test would have popped it though, a static test at say 1.5 mains pressure, is still less than a surge when the Washing Machine solenoid shuts off.

    And if it had failed the test, there would still be damage and the plumber wouldn’t be liable as it’s not his pipework…

    Bear
    Free Member

    Said independent expert needs to take his tie off and get out there in the real world a realise that sometimes shit happens and it is hard to avoid. He should maybe suggest that you all work together to rectify a situation that whilst unfortunate hasn’t killed anyone and was pretty hard to prevent.

    someone who works for me forgot to tighten a connection and it caused water through a ceiling (luckily this was in my brothers house!), but it held up to mains pressure for about 2 months before finally blowing apart. And the fitting wasn’t even nipped with a spanner only hand tight, no leakage from it till it gave way!

    “Nothing in these Regulations shall require any person to remove, replace, alter, disconnect or cease to use any water fittings which was lawfully installed or used, or capable of being use, before 1 July 1999.”

    Does that help?

    footflaps
    Full Member

    I assume the expert is from your Insurer?

    gears_suck
    Free Member

    It’s amazing that this is even a question. I don’t understand the,”who can I blame for something so I can get paid” attitude.
    It’s hard enough to make a living already and then there’s the odd customer who is looking for a reason to not pay, or get some back.
    This is why a smart workman/woman covers the bases.
    It sucks to be out there doing difficult technically challenging and careful clean work, when you’ve got someone looking over your shoulder just hoping you screw something up so they can have reason to get something for nothing.
    How long is the grace period for a fitting to fail?
    How long is the test period for a pressure test?
    Are you going to pay the plumber to sit around for 5 hours on the off chance something may fail?
    While the system is drained and filled with air to pressure test, are you going to be happy without your services for 24hrs?
    You do know the test for pressure loss is with air, right?
    Why isn’t the responsibility falling to the bloke who assembled the pipe that failed?
    Is this the kind of customer…
    Like the one who asked me to fit an airing cupboard door with a roller ball catch. She called me back because although it held the door closed and functioned perfectly, it didn’t click loudly enough when the ball engaged the catch plate. It took me nearly half a day mucking around to source and fit one with a stronger spring. At my cost of course.
    When does one responsibility start and end?
    Simply ridiculous to hold this plumber responsible in your scenario.

Viewing 18 posts - 1 through 18 (of 18 total)

The topic ‘Plumbers to comment please…boiler upgrade woes.’ is closed to new replies.