Heh. One of the most common complaints I hear from omnivores about meat “substitutes” is their perception that they’re not sufficiently similar to their meat counterparts;[/quote]

I don’t see any conflict between those two points.

You like variety, yet are actively rejecting yet more variety. (-:

In other news I don’t eat shit 😉

bencooper – Member

I live with a Vegan. Every day is a struggle.

I’m a delectamentarian.
Every day is heavenly. 😀

In other news I don’t eat shit

You know what they say; one man’s meat is another man’s pornography, or something.

In other news I don’t eat shit

You sure talk a lot of it though 😛

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of ‘meat’ (as opposed to thinking of it as something you’re going without)? Because essentially that’s what it is, it’s a convenient way of packaging protein. Quorn can be hit and miss, but their peppered steaks are nice, and I’m quite partial to the frozen ‘chicken’ burgers. Or if you can find them (I think H&B still carry them), Tivall hotdogs are indistinguishable from the Plumrose ones I used to have before I was veggie.

Just checked out the ingredients of those “hotdogs”… **** grim. (No worse than shitty processed foods containing meat that’ve been scraped off some assembly line of course, but I don’t eat those either).

I’m vegan and I don’t ask people why they’re carnivore therefore why should they question my diet… it’s my choice as much as their choice is
As for lacking certain nutrients, that bull.. all my blood tests taken each year are fine, the only thing that drops is colesterol counts (LDL)
The next stupid question…. ‘where do you get your protein from?’ – FFS from the food I eat – the ignorance that protein only comes from dead animal and the fact that your body only requires 1gm of protein per kg of body weight
Lack of energy… haha… you can look at my Strava if you want and decide if I have a lack of energy!
As for the cost of dead animal production, take a read http://www.worldwatch.org/node/549
I’ve not mentioned the diseases associated with dead animal consumption but that would take up too much space and time…
Eat what you want, but don’t question my or any other diet unless you want to save somebody’s life or health

spxxky – Member

I’m vegan and I don’t ask people why they’re carnivore

You don’t know any.

Anyway, my strict delectamentarian diet requires me to visit the Polish deli next door.
Ciao for now!

Just checked out the ingredients of those “hotdogs”… **** grim. (No worse than shitty processed foods containing meat that’ve been scraped off some assembly line of course, but I don’t eat those either).

Well, they’re hot dogs, they’re not haute cuisine. Out of interest though, I compared the nutritional information with the Plumrose ones.

Per 100g:

.		Plumr'	Tivall
ENERGY 		792kJ	560Kj
PROTEIN		10.5g	11g
FAT
Total		14.5g	8.4g
Saturated	5.0g	0.9g
CARBOHYDRATE
Total		4.5g	3.3g
Sugars		0.0g	0g
SODIUM		900mg	1g

Additionally, the Tivall ones have: Calcium, Iron, Zinc, Folic acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12.

Whilst they’re still arguably “junk food” I’d hazard that they’re a whole lot better than their pork (and chicken, who knew) counterparts.

Is there anything specifically in the ingredients that you’re objecting to? (I was a tad surprised to read that the colouring agent is rust…!)

here’s a thing, i like pigs, i think they’re fascinating creatures. More than worthy of our respect and care, even fondness.

so when we kill one, i think it’s important to make sure we’re not wasteful. and if that means hot dogs made of lips, ears and arseholes, so be it.

being picky would be disrespectful, surely?

How can anyone not like hot dogs?

Sometimes the world I live in delivers nothing but confusion tinged with sadness 😥

Additionally, the Tivall ones have: Calcium, Iron, Zinc, Folic acid, Vitamin E, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B12.

Whilst they’re still arguably “junk food” I have no problem with the idea that vegetarians/vegans can get all the vitamins/minerals they need from their diet; it’s not a great advert though when the junk food (there’s no “arguably” about it) needs to be artificially enriched. Plus there’s the industrially extracted elements like vegetable oil/hydrolyzed vegetable protein. Personally I will stick to natural foods like veg, fruit, grains and things hacked from animals.

don’t think it is about questioning other people’s diet (vegan, veggie, pesco-lacto-wotsit, or omnivore).

OP was asking more about “what do I need to know or be aware of?”.

Of course there are plenty of very healthy people of all dietary preferences. but if a teen suddenly just decides to “cut out all meat”, something has to take its place. not just toast and jam. yes of course you can cross out vegan diet and replace with cr@p diet and say FTFY for those that do decide on a toast and jam diet, but it doesn’t exactly help anyone.

Yes I eat meat. Funnily enough by choosing to be a meat eater I didn’t just cut out carrots, brocolli, and chickpeas. I choose not to eat quorn mainly because it’s a bit weird. It’s alright, but I’d rather have meat where the quorn is, or something totally different.

I don’t use scare tactics to justify eating meat. Certain militant vegans (not my words – think they were used on page 1) do try to scare me. I have worked in the farm industry, and know when to spot BS.

Now off to find those sheep and cows that eat meat…

And I notice you skip over the industrially extracted ingredients like vegetable oil/hydrolyzed vegetable protein.

I mostly skipped over the ingredients entirely, I wasn’t particularly talking about that.

“Industrially extracted ingredients” is a more interesting question though. Is that a bad thing? I don’t know, but I do know that hydrolysis has been used in the food industry for a couple of hundred years, HVP and variants on a theme are pretty common. It’s probably in trace amounts anyway, it’s used as a ‘meaty’ flavouring similar to MSG.

it’s not a great advert though when the junk food (there’s no “arguably” about it) needs to be artificially enriched.

Again, there’s nothing new or unusual in this. Ever eaten, I don’t know, bread? Breakfast cereal? Anything that claims to be “fortified”?

And who’s to say it “needs” to be artificially enriched? Perhaps it’s a marketing move to make the product stand out from competitors whose hot dogs are lacking in those vitamins.

Andy > well said, all very sensible.

“Industrially extracted ingredients” is a more interesting question though.

If you need a chemistry degree to understand how your dinner gets on the table then I’M OOT. So in that sense, it’s not an interesting question at all, just a big red flag (to me at least).

is there a better local source than the ones flown in from Spain? so transport pollution and irrigation issues to consider there.

I wasn’t making a moral point there. I could have said ‘freshly pressed locally produced fruit juice containing a reasonable level of vitamin C’ but I’d have sounded even more of a pretentious arse than usual. And that takes some doing.

f you need a chemistry degree to understand how your dinner gets on the table then I’M OOT. So in that sense, it’s not an interesting question at all, just a big red flag (to me at least).

Aye that meat will just have been grass fed and experienced no chemicals ever and it will just be “Natural”.

I have been a vegetarian for about 35 years. My diet is quite close to being vegan but I sometimes have dairy as I don’t want to spend the rest of my life trying to second guess what is in the meals not cooked by us.

I don’t actually like meat and never have.

I don’t really think about what other people eat it’s up to them.

I don’t really see why some omnivores regard the lack of meat in my diet as some sort of challenge.

Aye that meat will just have been grass fed and experienced no chemicals ever and it will just be “Natural”.

As much as possible I suppose, I thought that was the point of organic certification.

EDIT: Haha nice edit there but done before he saw my reply t be fully accurate

He asked me what I thought was safe to eat FWIW

As it is your argument applied to the meat you eat i am not sure why you are asking me.

If you need a chemistry degree to understand how your dinner gets on the table then I’M OOT. So in that sense, it’s not an interesting question at all, just a big red flag (to me at least).

And that’s entirely your prerogative of course. But your big red flag is purely subjective, there’s no science (or, y’know, facts) behind it. Your argument is basically “I don’t understand it and it sounds a bit funny.”

Personally, I think finding out whether something we eat may actually be harmful or just surrounded by Internet scare stories is a very interesting question indeed. Sure, it might be a bit of effort, but I personally prefer that approach to batting some baby animal over the noggin and tearing off lumps of its flesh. That just seems, well, barbaric and wholly unnecessary really.

In unrelated news, I’ve just realised that I’ve been spelling and saying “prerogative” incorrectly for decades.

Personally I would be so embarrassed if i was spelling words so poorly 😉

EDIT: Haha nice edit there but done before he saw my reply t be fully accurate

He asked me what I thought was safe to eat FWIW

As it is your argument applied to the meat you eat i am not sure why you are asking me.That is why I made the edit. That and your comment smacked of WHATTABOUTARY and I couldn’t really be arsed.

I don’t really see why some omnivores regard the lack of meat in my diet as some sort of challenge.

I’d find any diet that omits bacon a great challenge!

I’d find any diet that omits bacon a great challenge!

HOUSE!

As much as possible I suppose, I thought that was the point of organic certification.

You’re broadly right, though “organic” is more to do with animal welfare, in the UK at any rate. I’d have to look it up, but IIRC there are limits rather than outright bans on things like pesticides.

The Soil Association website is the place to go if you want to find out what’s actually in your meat. Er, so to speak.

Your argument is basically “I don’t understand it and it sounds a bit funny.”

So is it better or worse to avoid eating something you’re not sure about, or just blindly carry on eating it anyway?

FWIW the thing that really put me off processed foods was watching an episode of How It Works concerning the production of vegetable oil (yes, it was all systems go that day at Chez Zilog). I appreciate that all the solvents used (and hydrochloric acid in the case of HVP) are neutralised and don’t appear in the food you eat – it just all seemed so unnecessary to me. Obviously this applies equally to veggie/non-veggie food.

HOUSE!

I make no apologies for my love of pork products!

So is it better or worse to avoid eating something you’re not sure about, or just blindly carry on eating it anyway?

It’s better to find out and make an informed decision, n’est-ce pas?

FWIW the thing that really put me off meat was watching an episode of How It Works concerning the production of meat in an abbatoir. I appreciate that all the techniques are supposed to be humane but it just all seemed so unnecessary to me.

Fixed that for you. (-:

TBH, heavily processed foods is a whole other discussion (and where I was going when I said it was interesting earlier). We know from scaremongering headlines that “processed = bad” but we must also understand that “pithy soundbites ? science.” Heavily processed foods are often laden with salt, sugar and fats; things our bodies crave to the point of addiction but aren’t particularly loaded with nutritional value. To my mind this is a much greater danger than some centuries-old chemical process used on a trace ingredient.

Besides, I said at the outset that I’m lucky to live in a society where not eating meat is a viable lifestyle. But to have a diet which fully avoids anything that sounds like it might be processed or artificial in some way we’ve actually got the opposite problem; it’s very difficult to do with any degree of certainty and requires a financial investment which is out of the reach of a lot of the populace. It is, if you like, an actual First World Problem.

(Sorry for the thread drift.)

It’s better to find out and make an informed decision, n’est-ce pas?

That is a politician’s answer if ever I heard one 🙂

But to have a diet which fully avoids anything that sounds like it might be processed or artificial in some way we’ve actually got the opposite problem; it’s very difficult to do with any degree of certainty and requires a financial investment which is out of the reach of a lot of the populace.

I genuinely don’t believe this is true. I do believe (and I don’t want to start sounding like Jive here) that we are told this myth over and over again because corporations make much more money selling us crap than they do healthy food. And because (generally) people like eating the crap that is slowly killing them.

I genuinely don’t believe this is true.

You don’t believe that buying all fresh, “organic”*, as tampered with as little as possible food is more expensive then mass produced, processed, canned/frozen/shrinkwrapped stuff?

people like eating the crap that is slowly killing them

you may have a point there.

*pretty sure in a lot of cases this is a brand/tag rather than a certification that the contents are 100% natural.

I genuinely don’t believe this is true.

Point is, organic produce is more expensive to buy (and I assume, to produce) than its non-organic counterparts. This probably isn’t a big deal to most of us on AspiringToBeMiddleClassTrackWorld, but if you’re down to your last tenner before your giro turns up and you need to feed your family and your dog-on-a-string, then whether or not your Lidl Value Burgers had the opportunity for a good moo before they were ground into little bits and reassembled into convenient shapes is going to take second fiddle to whether or not you can get six for 29p.

Whether it’s cheaper to live off ready-meals or cook your own from scratch (which I think is what you were alluding to?) is a whole other argument, of course.

Obviously this applies equally to veggie/non-veggie food.

well, quite. which is why it’s a bit of a non-issue with regard to this particular thread (not that much of it has been on-topic, mind!)

*pretty sure in a lot of cases this is a brand/tag rather than a certification that the contents are 100% natural.

The Soil Association “organic” certification is just that, a certification. Nothing to stop the corporate marketing machines coming up with slogans that sound very similar though. “Farm fresh!” Meaningless.

Point is, organic produce is more expensive to buy (and I assume, to produce) than its non-organic counterparts

not necessarily.

Unicorn Grocery in Manchester has a chalk board on which they regularly display price comparisons between their own organic, mostly locally grown fresh produce and the non-organic supermarket equivalents. More often than not, Unicorn’s prices are lower (the only one they can never compete on price-wise is bananas (and no, these are obviously NOT locally grown anyway!)).

You don’t believe that buying all fresh, “organic”*, as tampered with as little as possible food is more expensive then mass produced, processed, canned/frozen/shrinkwrapped stuff?

No, I’m well aware how horrendous my shopping bill is. I’m saying that if you chose to subsist wholly on un-processed food (as in un-**** with – I’m not counting frozen whole peas, etc, as processed food obviously) you could do it very inexpensively compared to buying processed foods.

EDIT: actually xherbivorex makes a very good point above. The organic produce from local farms in the farmers market near me is often cheaper than supermarket prices. Don’t confuse the profits made from food by big companies with the cost of producing it. The problem is as much down to us allowing corporations to dictate what we eat, where it comes from & how much we have to pay for it as anything else. You can always grow it yourself; what could be cheaper than that?

My Wife’s workmate has just converted to being Vegan, like most new converts to anything she’s very evangelical about it, but isn’t open to debate which I find frustrating.

She declares that “meat is murder” – perhaps, I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made – one or more chickens died to create that dish. It’s pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that’s it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered – BUT, if they weren’t, they wouldn’t have lived in the first place – 7 weeks life, or no life – although she doesn’t see it that way – as far as she’s concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn’t eat them.

And by extension the same could be said for all animal products – very few animals are hunted from the wild these days, aside of course from Fish, who oddly seem to be ‘okay’ for a certain percentage of Vegetarians.

She sees millions of animals being killed every year for food and it upsets her, which I can understand – there’s nothing pleasant about killing something, but equally – the vast majority of these animals wouldn’t have been born, or lived in the first place if we didn’t eat them – most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don’t have much luck – male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing – Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal – but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they’re a few days old, but for the animals that it’s financially worth raising for meat they live a live without attack by predators and won’t face starvation, or thirst and will be cared for.

Unfortunately – my Wife’s workmate isn’t open to debate or reason, she preferred ill thought out Internet ‘facts’ that wouldn’t pass a snopes test and if you try to offering an alternative view she fingers in ears and “la la la la I can’t hear you”.

depends where you live.
back home most of the fruit and veg would come from the local farmshop. conveniently for us that was just on the road out of the village. or in summer, often PYO.

live in a town, and the average city dweller probably wouldn’t even know where the local farmshop or farmer’s market is. and if they did, it is probably nowhere near as convenient as Waitrose.

friend’s farm stuff all mostly ended up in local markets (or cider). the bigger farm with the farm shop, had loads going straight to Tesco and would be on the shelves with 48 hours. not an awful lot in it. no idea about price, other than the pickers getting paid 2x as much but big penalties for getting too many duff strawberries in a punnet, when you know you’re picking for Tesco rather than local market.

She declares that “meat is murder” – perhaps,

I think we can all agree we kill it to eat

I had a lovely chicken curry last night that I made – one or more chickens died to create that dish. It’s pretty unpleasant to me that Chickens bread for meat only live 6-7 weeks, that’s it. All those thousands of 7 week old chickens being butchered – BUT, if they weren’t, they wouldn’t have lived in the first place – 7 weeks life, or no life – although she doesn’t see it that way – as far as she’s concerned the farmer would have raised those chickens and let them live a full and content life on the farm if only we didn’t eat them.

In humans terms you would be arguing that the infanticide of a 7 week old child is kinder than it never having been born then you have to say we killed it to eat it.
FFS you really want to argue this 😯

Its a terrible argument

Most farmers (in the UK at least) treat their livestock very well, yes certain animals don’t have much luck – male chicks may only live minutes, male calves born into diary herds days. But again you could argue that is caused by people trying to do the right thing – Veal crates are indeed vile, but their is such a thing as ethical veal – but publicity has made it a complete no-no for most consumers so the male calves get shot in the head when they’re a few days old, but for the animals that it’s financially worth raising for meat

So basically they dont treat them well they just try ot make money out of them No offence but you have failed to make your own point there and just made a long list of things where they dont treat them well

I am not surprised she does not respond well to your version of reason 😯

In which case I suggest that when she evangelises, you do fingers in your ears and “la la la”!