Viewing 36 posts - 1 through 36 (of 36 total)
  • Plastic Fantastic?
  • craigbroadbent
    Free Member

    I note carbon bike sales are expected to grow 27% per year.
    I have never had a carbon frame only forks and seat post.
    I guess they are lighter, but are there some perils?

    somafunk
    Full Member

    There’s a greater chance of being struck by lightning if you are riding through an electrical storm

    Rorschach
    Free Member

    Yes.

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    DezB
    Free Member

    Great word, perils 🙂

    Good to see the internet has sexualized Penelope 🙁

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    Good to see the internet has sexualized Penelope

    She made me feel ‘feel funny’ when I was 12, which was at least a hundred years before the internet 😀

    cokie
    Full Member

    Where did that figure come from?
    I’m just curious.
    It sound a bit like the Garry Fisher claim of ‘We’ll all be on e-bikes by 2030’.

    PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    I note carbon bike sales are expected to grow 27% per year.

    Really? Makes sense with the increased amount available. What’s the source?

    I guess they are lighter, but are there some perils?

    Welcome to the mire.

    My understanding is thus (after talking in depth with a carbon layup expert): Carbon is amazing in many respects. An expert can be lay it up to have desirable qualities in particular areas (stiff, vibration reducing etc.) and it is incredibly light. There are now plenty of places with carbon manufacturing facilities in the far east, so it’s easy and cheap to get products, especially if you’re buying a pattern part with a pre-existing mould purely to whack a logo on. It’s genuinely amazing stuff.

    However there is always a pay-off. Carbon is hazardous to handle, does not biodegrade and can be put together by experts and amateurs alike. It also hides internal imperfections; a carbon rim may look great on the outside, but may have a material thickness that varies incredibly and the owner may never know until failure.

    Similarly frames may have hidden issues that are only apparent when things start to go wrong ; think Evil and YT. I believe Giant are the only company that x-rays their bikes to make sure the carbon thickness is consistent throughout and to check for cracks, and that’s only on the top, top end frames.

    Worth a read: https://www.polebicycles.com/why-arent-we-going-for-carbon-frames/

    So, in a nutshell – I’m not surprised, but personally I won’t be buying one.

    PJM1974
    Free Member

    I’ve two full suss bikes, one is aluminium and the other is made of carbon.

    Both are nice to ride, but the most obvious difference (to me) is that one is a 29er, the other isn’t.

    daern
    Free Member

    I note carbon bike sales are expected to grow 27% per year.
    I have never had a carbon frame only forks and seat post.
    I guess they are lighter, but are there some perils?

    My last few bikes have all been plastic and I’ve not had an issue with any of them. There’s just a few things to watch for:

    1. I’ve had a couple of friends punch holes in frames with flicked up rocks on fast, limestone descents. Some sort of rockguard on the downtube would probably be a good thing, if this is your bag. I don’t run one myself and while I have a few marks here and there, I’ve never felt worried about how I ride the bike or what I hit.
    2. Rubbing. This is a big one, especially on naked frames. CF is much more susceptible to being worn away by running – most commonly from cables, but in reality from anything that rubs against it. This includes things like heel rub on seatstays (I’ve had this and had to use an old inner tub to protect the frame) and loose headset bearings (especially with integrated types). Be anal with your frame protection tape around the cables and check that it hasn’t worn through. I recabled my bike after I bought it specifically to minimise cable rub.
    3. Clamping. Take care when clamping the bike where it doesn’t expect to be clamped – namely top tube in a workstand, or downtube in a bike rack. Personally, I use a downtube clamp bike rack with the Thule carbon frame protector gizmo to spread the load. Never had a problem, even on my road bike which has a frame made of carbon-reinforced lace and toilet paper.

    Otherwise, I don’t worry overly about it. My carbon bikes are treated like any other bike – looked after like an extra child when it comes to maintenance, and ridden like it’s been stolen on the trail.

    Oh, and obligitary link to the PinkBike video 🙂

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    So, in a nutshell – I’m not surprised, but personally I won’t be buying one. we’re not making a carbon bike and here’s some scaremongering

    Yes it can hide flaws that only ever become apparent when they fail, and they can be put together very well or very badly. You know, like those Commencal’s that all cracked because the factory got the weld sequence wrong and it built up stress, or those Trek Session’s that were late because they were all out of alignment, or the Orange’s that cracked their shock mounts because they were CNC’d.

    Wait, no, they were all aluminium.

    Aluminium doesn’t bio-degrade either.

    And for all the energy you could reclaim by recycling it, you’d better not EVER drive somewhere in your car to ride it or you’ll undo that (the carbon one will just go into an incinerator and light your home for a few minutes).

    I’d have no qualms about a carbon frame, I don’t have one because I can’t afford one!

    DezB
    Free Member

    I’ve two full suss bikes, one is aluminium and the other is made of carbon.

    Both are nice to ride, but the most obvious difference (to me) is that one is a 29er, the other isn’t

    Without knowing which is which how can we judge?!

    daern
    Free Member

    Without knowing which is which how can we judge?!

    This is STW – you don’t need facts to be judgemental. Judge away!

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    IMO the only downside to carbon is the cost.

    I invisiframe the frames, so no issue with rub.
    Holes from rockstrikes, never happened touch wood but the invisiframe helps, and carbon is pretty easy to repair.
    Anything that breaks a carbon frame would probably break a metal one anyway.

    that Pole article makes me think they need a reason to not make one, for whatever reason.

    Carbon is hazardous to handle, does not biodegrade and can be put together by experts and amateurs alike.

    Not an issue for the consumer Shirley? Assuming they buy from a bone fide manufacturer? That said, amateurs can make metal frames too?

    It also hides internal imperfections; a carbon rim may look great on the outside, but may have a material thickness that varies incredibly and the owner may never know until failure.

    Which is EXACTLY what a warranty is for.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Not an issue for the consumer Shirley? Assuming they buy from a bone fide manufacturer? That said, amateurs can make metal frames too?

    Yea, they get called artisans though, not amateurs.

    that Pole article makes me think they need a reason to not make one, for whatever reason.

    Their prices would already be pretty eyewatering if they were carbon!

    jonnyboi
    Full Member

    I did a frame swap from an alu hardtail to a carbon myself. so it was identical components.

    The difference in ride quality was stark, the carbon frame dampened vibration and harshness, and helped reduced my fatigue when riding.

    You can squeeze parts of the frame with your hand, which is a bit scary at first but the bike is stiff where it needs to be and has stood up to all the abuse I’ve given it.

    Only downside as above has been scratches on the naked carbon, one where it was leant against a brick wall by someone is rather annoying!

    PimpmasterJazz
    Free Member

    So, in a nutshell – I’m not surprised, but personally I won’t be buying one. we’re not making a carbon bike and here’s some scaremongering

    How is it scaremongering? And who’s ‘we’?

    Yes it can hide flaws that only ever become apparent when they fail, and they can be put together very well or very badly. You know, like those Commencal’s that all cracked because the factory got the weld sequence wrong and it built up stress, or those Trek Session’s that were late because they were all out of alignment, or the Orange’s that cracked their shock mounts because they were CNC’d.

    Wait, no, they were all aluminium.

    They were, and a mix of QC (weld cycle and alignment) and design (shock mount) problems. And all on one particular model, which was worked out and rectified. It was not an issue potentially affecting every aluminium bike or bike product*, so I’m not entirely sure what your point is.

    Aluminium doesn’t bio-degrade either.

    Aluminium can be recycled. Currently there’s no efficient way to recycle carbon fibre.

    Not an issue for the consumer Shirley? Assuming they buy from a bone fide manufacturer? That said, amateurs can make metal frames too?

    A bona fida manufacturer manufacturing in Taiwan will use one of several factories, so it really depends on the factory they use. If your manufacturer is going cheap then they will use a cheap factory where technical skills and QC may be somewhat less than that of a more expensive factory, as is the case in most things.

    Which is EXACTLY what a warranty is for.

    I’ve seen a section of carbon rim with the internal thickness at one end somewhere close to a millimetre and the thickness at the other nearer five. If I were paying good money for this ‘quality’ rim then found this out I’d be appalled. A warranty may help when something like that breaks, but I’d rather have a decent rim in the first place. Alternatively you can feel justified while eating through a straw in your hospital bed*.

    *Disclaimer: the above statements may include a little scaremongering.

    And don’t call me Shirley. 😉

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    How is it scaremongering? And who’s ‘we’?

    I was misquoting Pole.

    Aluminium can be recycled. Currently there’s no efficient way to recycle carbon fibre.

    My point was that the embedded energy in an aluminium frame is tiny, if you take it home from the shop in your car you’ll wipe most of it out.

    craigbroadbent
    Free Member

    @cokie @pimpmaster jazz
    The rise of carbon frames is forecast by technavio
    forecast
    I note most of the carbon bikes come with warnings about frame clamping.
    carbon clamping

    paton
    Free Member

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY9JUMYI54lLOHpb_zbIedQ
    This guy does some good videos about plastic bike frames
    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1bRZk2SZpo[/video]

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQPvb_Z2c7M[/video]

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsyEOlUpb-E[/video]

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    I’ve got a carbon bike. I rode it into a tree that wasn’t supposed to be there last night and came round covered in blood. The bike was fine. In fact the press fit BB stopped creaking.

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    27% isn’t a huge amount of that’s only 27% more carbon bikes, that’s not 27% of all bikes, is guess that figure is less than 1% of total bike sales.

    I’m not sure I’ll ever own one, “the only downside is cost” can’t agree with that really, but it’s a lot of money and whilst they’re lovely it’s not going to make much real world difference to a middle aged mincer like me.

    Personally I’m glad to see there seems to be a new generation of cool alu bikes filling the gap that the fancy brands left behind – again it seems possible to buy a really good, well spec’d bike that’ll ride well and last for £2k-ish when the SCs of the world want £3k for a frame or £3.5k for an entry level build.

    I’ll probably on a Bird next time, partly because I like the look, partly because unlike a Alu SC or YT I won’t be reminded “come and have a look for what you could have won” every time someone goes by on the fancy Carbon version.

    jameso
    Full Member

    This guy does some good videos about plastic bike frames

    As do these guys 😀 (well, forks .. )

    jameso
    Full Member

    I’ll probably on a Bird next time, partly because I like the look, partly because unlike a Alu SC or YT I won’t be reminded “come and have a look for what you could have won” every time someone goes by on the fancy Carbon version.

    There was a good podcast by Cesar Rojo recently where he was talking about how he thinks many carbon FS bikes are just too stiff laterally, when laid over they didn’t track as well as less stiff Al frames. He makes a carbon bike now so it’s nothing anti-carbon, just saying that the way it’s used isn’t always optimised and Al isn’t inferior as such.

    IdleJon
    Full Member

    This is STW – you don’t need facts to be judgemental. Judge away!

    The fibres don’t align with the sunrise so aren’t holistically positioned for ultimate ground-huggingness during solstitial events. You could possibly even cause defibrillation of the main solar sequence if you use the wrong type of carbon on Wednesdays in November. And the 29er is the wrong colour. Obvs!

    Northwind
    Full Member

    jameso – Member

    There was a good podcast by Cesar Rojo recently where he was talking about how he thinks many carbon FS bikes are just too stiff laterally, when laid over they didn’t track as well as less stiff Al frames.

    Yup. And Nico Vooleywoo’s been saying the same for ages. For mountainbiking, 16% more stiffs is a winning sale method for now but it always reminds me of where motorbikes were at until about the turn of the century- it really was a benefit to add stiffness to lots of bikes, old GSXRs felt like they had a hinge in the middle. But instead of going “make it stiff enough” or “decide what the ideal stiffness compromise is”, everyone went “more stiffs, forever”. Til Honda managed to built a bike that was so stiff it was orrible, and people took to taking out frame bolts or hacksawing into the frame and swingarm so it’d go round bumpy corners. Then the tide broke and design and marketing speak suddenly started talking about compliance.

    I reckon we’ve just not reached our RC51 yet, or if we have we haven’t noticed yet.

    tomhoward – Member

    Carbon is hazardous to handle,

    To be fair, so is molten metal

    paton
    Free Member

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQmyxcEE9ro[/video]

    loughor
    Free Member

    A curse on the lot of you ! Now I’ve got that Barbie Girl song stuck in my head !

    Happy plastic, it’s fantastic

    howsyourdad1
    Free Member

    As someone who has never owned a carbon bike but Is keen to when they produce a carbon smuggler, I am presuming manufacturing techniques have improved? Paton that video of the Bianchi was interesting, it looked like a A-level project frame on the inside.

    shermer75
    Free Member

    What’s a carbon smuggler?

    shermer75
    Free Member

    I agree, that Bianchi video was really interesting!! 🙂

    blader1611
    Free Member

    I have both a carbon road bike and a FS both bought from excellent members on here (thanks teamslug and wwaswas) and they are superb. They are utterly wasted on me as i am either/both a rubbish/clueless rider so other than losing a wheel i cant tell any difference from my ally version (except the FS as i have only ever had a hardtail). I guess the only noticeable difference is when i have to carry the bike over a gate, metal is really cold to touch!

    howsyourdad1
    Free Member

    Not a carbon smuggler, yesterday

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I reckon we’ve just not reached our RC51* yet, or if we have we haven’t noticed yet.

    I cry a little inside every time I see the prices of SP1/SP2’s 🙁

    When I passed my test it was the bike I really wanted, and prices had bottomed out. Now a 17yr old SP1 is the same price as a new bike!

    *for non petrolheads the RC51 (SP1/SP2) was the Ford GT40 of motorbikes, it’s the bike Honda made when they decided to stop playing around with small 4 cylinder engines and just build a litre V-twin bike purely to beat the Italians. It was also apparently horrible to ride on real roads as Honda used all that extra space not needed for the V4 to make an enormously rigid frame.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Literally the only things I remember about the long weekend I spent with one, was that parts of my arse actually died, the military road at gairloch (the dreaded wibbly wobbly) and the german road at Kinlochleven were absolutely terrifying even taking every corner at half the speed I normally would, and I almost ran out of petrol about 19 times. I might have enjoyed it at some points but it all got overwritten by angst and crushed expectations. Sounded like an angry god, though and even though it wasn’t as fast as an inline litre bike it felt like being shot out of a cannon on a clean corner exit.

    I reckon it was awesome, but not actually good 😆 Maybe a proper rider would have been able to use it more but I’d always be quicker, safer and happier on an easier to use bike. I’d bet actual money I’d have lapped east fortune faster on my little (tuned to ****) SV.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    So what if carbon sales are set to increase? Why would that affect your decision to go carbon or not? Some of those project d carbon bike sales will be to those noobs with cash and gullible to the marketing hype and will buy one whether it is the best or most appropriate choice for them (a mate of mine has never mountain bikes before, decided to take it up wandered into his local bike shop and came out with a brand new Hightower and he is typical of most of the bike sales for that type of bike), some will be experienced bikers lookin to upgrade and will want carbon for some of its most desirable properties. But that doesn’t have to influence your choice about what’s best for you.

    Carbon is not the most ideal material for bike frames, it has pro’s and cons just like steel, alloy and titanium. I personally don’t want a carbon bike as It is not as durable as metal and i’m clumsy. You pay a huge premium for carbon for a very small improvement in strength and weight and I don’t think it’s worth it. But we all have different wants and needs out of our bikes alongside our budgetary constraints.

    Buy want you want, what you can afford and more importantly what you can afford to break.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Northwind – Member
    ……………………somethign something……………………………something…………………………………Sounded like an angry god, …………………………………………..

    I was 17 on a CG125 and lived within earshot of Donnington. I REALLY wanted one!

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