Peak District Route Closures – Next Phase

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  • Peak District Route Closures – Next Phase
  • Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Subscriber

    Why do we want wider access? Bar the Peak Park Rangers and a very few stroppy old ramblers, no-one gives a stuff where you ride as long as you’re polite, considerate and reasonably discreet.

    grittyshaker
    Member

    That’s my experience too BWD. Be nice not to have to risk prosecution though, say where ownership changes.

    Yes Ride Sheffield are branching out into the Peak. We’ve been heavily involved with the work on the Eastern Moors, worked with Sheffield Wildlife Trust on Blackamoor, encouraged the National Trust to consider opening more routes on Longshaw Estate and have campaigned on any number of other fronts too. Not sure the CTC can claim quite such a track record….

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Subscriber

    I’m more bothered about what would happen if magazines and guide book writers suddenly had carte blanche to include my favourite local riding in their latest editions… But anyway, it’s no more likely to happen than, say, horse riders being allowed to annex trails in the Peak District for exclusive use by equestrians.

    Cut Gate? Has anyone ever seen a horse on Cut Gate? I know I haven’t. Or even a hoof-print. Or a pile of the manure they leave behind to mark their passing.

    When was the last time anyone was prosecuted for riding a footpath in the PDNP I wonder. I can vaguely recall an incident about eight years ago or so.

    I’m not against mountain biking pressure groups or representation by the way, some of the heavy-handed trail work is dreadful, but I’m not overly convinced by campaigning for access to the footpath network. I suspect if there’s one thing that would really stir up resentment among groups like the Ramblers, that would be it.

    banks
    Member

    From my (naive) point of view Blacka moor you have an abundance of trails so quite easy to keep both activities separate where with the proposed routes there are no alternatives.

    rogerthecat
    Member

    Can see your point BWD but if you have never encountered any hostility from walkers then you are doing very well. We’re a pretty considerate bunch compared to many we meet riding round here and we still get grief on occasions, not because of how we ride but because we exist in their universe!

    Opening up some, if not all, footpaths would ease the situation rather than exacerbate it because it would spread the load. There will always be the honeypots but a wider spread would be good.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    CTC should take on this role and local campaign groups should be affiliated

    Meanwhile on another thread, MTBers seem to think the CTC is pointless. I don’t, but would I join Ride Sheffield if I don’t ride anywhere near Sheffield more than twice a year? Unlikely. But if Ride Sheffield had the CTC on their side and both worked on this, there may be a result?

    We have no voice on a national scale so maybe this is a good example of why CTC / BC / another group is needed.

    rogerthecat
    Member

    Re Cut Gate – this is the route they are proposing, the site is all flash based so could not pull the image through and the map is pretty poor, but unmistakably Cut Gate:

    Kinder Loop

    Premier Icon Onzadog
    Subscriber

    Or from the flip side, if ctc took this issue up, maybe I’d feel they did consider mountain bikers and might be more inclined to join. Bit chicken and egg that one really.

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Subscriber

    Can see your point BWD but if you have never encountered any hostility from walkers then you are doing very well. We’re a pretty considerate bunch compared to many we meet riding round here and we still get grief on occasions, not because of how we ride but because we exist in their universe!

    Twice in the last ten years, which, given the amount I ride, is pretty good going. But then I ride mostly either alone or in small groups, I slow down or stop for walkers and horses and I say hello to people and smile. I look at it positively, I exist in their universe, so I’m going to be smiley and friendly. It doesn’t cost you anything to say hello and maybe pause for a chat and it means people view you as a human being on a bike rather than a loosely guided missile… Or maybe I just look very fierce… 😉

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Subscriber

    Re Cut Gate – this is the route they are proposing, the site is all flash based so could not pull the image through and the map is pretty poor, but unmistakably Cut Gate:

    Kinder Loop

    Haven’t they just linked a bunch of existing rights of way and slapped a fancy name on it? We’ve been riding that route, more or less, for years. I find it reassuring that the blurb includes the line: ‘We hope it will be enjoyed by horse riders, cyclists and walkers alike.’

    Though I note that behind the scenes they are apparently out to ban bikes and create a horse-only right of way network in the Peak District, which I know because someone wrote it on a forum and that makes it true.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    Bit chicken and egg that one really.

    Choose apathy or pro-activity, it goes both ways )

    It has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the majority of horse riders are tw*ts. We can’t let them win.
    Get yer winter tyres on and anywhere you see examples of sanitised trails; get shredding! I will personally be doing a big skid all the way down roych clough leaving the landscape scarred beyond recognition.

    Premier Icon slowoldgit
    Subscriber

    On that linky, the horsey peoples’ Kinder Loop, it says…

    We hope it will be enjoyed by horse riders, cyclists and walkers alike.

    I’m confused (which actually happens quite often).

    rogerthecat
    Member

    Blimey, this is hard work.
    The horsey folks are in favour of sanitised trails, I don’t think anyone suggested that they wanted MTBs banning. Sanitised trails = boring riding, which may encourage people to use footpaths more, which may cause more conflict with other ROW users and landowners.
    The local landowners & farmers round here would be very happy to see access limited for just about everyone, they make running anything outdoor a challenge in itself.
    There are a few threads/posts/comments online where other ROW users seem to be setting their stall out against MTBs as well as 4x4s and trail bikes. I will go and dig them out shortly.

    bland
    Member

    Which camp do walkers sit in?

    Boring flat trails in a rugged landscape or those which are scarred by hundreds if years of passage exposing the geology and adding vast wealth to the surroundings?

    Can the landowners not be persuaded to have two paths next to each other, one left as it is and another new one cut with shavings? Signage to direct the best option for your enjoyment and shared sections where its slready smooth and “we’ll maintained”

    Is this too simple? Surely all users add money into the economy so encouraging all of them is a benefit to everyone?

    It’s either that or the national park authority actually open up some of the moorland and cut in some trails down to the bedrock

    thepodge
    Member

    Stuff the horse riders & the walkers, this right here is the problem…

    john horscroft – Yes Ride Sheffield are branching out into the Peak. blah, blah, blah, Not sure the CTC can claim quite such a track record…

    If the people who are supposed to represent us cant even mention another group that are supposed to represent us without sticking a snide comment in then we’re doomed from the start.

    Premier Icon flossie
    Subscriber

    Right that’s it….. I’m riding footpaths as fair game and taking a matok with me on night rides. A few nice humps and bumps to leap off across this smooth fast trails should spice things up a bit!

    Premier Icon MartynS
    Subscriber

    Cut Gate? Has anyone ever seen a horse on Cut Gate? I know I haven’t. Or even a hoof-print. Or a pile of the manure they leave behind to mark their passing.

    Yes, actually 2 of them.
    It’s worrying what’s planned…it’s worrying that 1 complaint can result in £60,000 of Tarmac shavings being dumped on a bridle way to improve it, make it safer, whatever.

    Could we now complain about the bridleway, that’s it’s to easy and try to get it put back as it was…..

    ps breaching a byelaw is a criminal offence
    http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/290647/trails-management-plan-summary-2012.pdf (*search for the word bike)

    Hora for the crime of riding willy nilly I hereby charge you with 1 bike for the rest of your natural life.

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Subscriber

    The horsey folks are in favour of sanitised trails, I don’t think anyone suggested that they wanted MTBs banning.

    That’s exactly what the OP is suggesting. Educated guess is that he’s a motorcycle trail rider trying very hard to persuade mountain bikers that somehow the world is out to get us.

    Come back with credible evidence that a credible, representative user group has a stated policy of banning mtbs and I’ll give it some credence, but lunatic fringe individuals who hate bikes is a whole different thing altogether. It’s like taking a thread off here and representing it as somehow representative of what mountain bikers believe en masse, no?

    Premier Icon BadlyWiredDog
    Subscriber

    It’s worrying what’s planned..

    What is planned then?

    banks
    Member

    What is planned then?

    Tarmac, lots of it. All over the peaks including Kinder.

    The horsey lot have some pretty powerful allies….

    Stuff the horse riders & the walkers, this right here is the problem…

    john horscroft – Yes Ride Sheffield are branching out into the Peak. blah, blah, blah, Not sure the CTC can claim quite such a track record…

    If the people who are supposed to represent us cant even mention another group that are supposed to represent us without sticking a snide comment in then we’re doomed from the start.

    What’s snide about that? I’m not convinced that CTC have the resources to cover all the bases. I’m suggesting that Ride Sheffield migth be able to fill that gap. Hardly snide!

    ChrisE
    Member

    What the original post says is exactly what has happened around here. The Peak District National Park is now following fully in the footsteps of the Yorkshire Dales National Park.

    The OP sounds like a trail (motor) biker or 4×4 driver. YDNP has gone out of it’s way to ban/curtail/manage motors but at the same time been fantastic for MTBs. It has not closed or restricted any routes at all for MTBs but in fact has created several new bridleways, specifically to encourage MTBs. The Park thinks, and I agree, that trail/scramble bikes and 4x4s have no place in a national park but should leave the outdoors for walkers, cyclists and horses.

    Motors have tried many times to get MTBs to support them, by saying “when we go, you will be next” but have always failed. It is a false argument and would only fool MTBers that have not really taken a long hard look at the facts.

    The anti-offroaders worked hard to bring in the NERC Act 2006 and continue through the courts to make it bite. The CTC supported this. The NERC Act curtails the creation of routes for motors but does great things for he creation of bridleways and RBs for ‘us’. You can now create a bridleway by simply riding, unchallenged on a route for 12 years on your bike. Before NERC you could not.

    Consider that legislation will only go one way for motors. Over 10 years places to go on a motorbike, on green lanes in the countryside, has only been tightened. In 10, or 20 years more it will get even less or even be banned altogether.

    The last 10 years has been fantastic in the Yorkshire Dales and now that’s being repeated elsewhere.

    C

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    The last 10 years has been fantastic in the Yorkshire Dales and now that’s being repeated elsewhere.

    Agree. But if the preparation for vehicle restrictions included covering Mastiles Lane with crap shaved off roads to a depth of a couple of inches, the first few of those years would have been a bit rubbish.

    Let’s hope that nature and enthusiastic use works its magic on the new surfaces. Skids are for responsible MTBers…

    grum
    Member

    Why do we want wider access? Bar the Peak Park Rangers and a very few stroppy old ramblers, no-one gives a stuff where you ride as long as you’re polite, considerate and reasonably discreet.

    Wasn’t this government talking about legislation that would make trespass a criminal rather than civil offence?

    Just to clear up a few things. We actually work closley with the CTC and are insured through them too. There are some areas that their orgainisation can work well in and other which are more limited. The same applies to us.

    The best way that any mountain bike groups/advocates/organisations and just riders can work is together. Bitching and moaning amongst and about ourseleves is a futile exercise

    Shared use tracks are exactly that and a land manager has to be able to meet everyones needs. They have to do the work, but how they do it can sometimes be contentious.
    In Sheffield we hopefully have tuned a corner and are now consulted on all work to be done. We input on it and are considered in the design proccess. In Derbyshire, little if anyone is consulted. Which is the problem. They are also delivering a lot of the Peak Parks work, as they can afford to do it.

    We are doing our best to engage better with DCC as well as groups such as Peak Horse Power. We are also working on a specific strategy for what is mentioned in the original post. We will post up on the website when we have info.

    While our name is Ride Sheffield we will do our best to help with Peak based issues, until a more peak based group get set up

    Thanks
    RS

    vickypea
    Member

    For trails that the horse groups want “sanitised”, would a solution be to sanitise half of the width, leaving the other half more technically interesting for mountain bikers? Obviously not all bridleways are sufficiently wide to do that but we would only need a relatively narrow strip, if a compromise is needed.

    hora
    Member

    So lets get this straight. Are we saying ALL horse riders or just one group?

    Look at it from their perspective. How many times has a mountain bike warrior come belting down a trail and startled the horse?

    Ever ridden a horse? Its waaaaaaay harder than a bike. Imagine putting a saddle on a hormonal woman who is hungover and pissed off at being surprised..

    (Mods please be kind) 🙂

    jekkyl
    Member

    Imagine putting a saddle on a hormonal woman who is hungover and pissed off at being surprised..

    you sound like you’re talking from experience….

    vickypea
    Member

    Hora – I have never even come across a horse on a bridleway while mountain biking in the Peak District (which is once or twice every week). They are always walking on the road (and crapping outside our house!) 🙂

    compositepro
    Member

    Ok worsecase scenario. I’m banned from riding footpaths. I still do it.

    IF we are banned. Whats the worse that they can do? **** all. Combative but sorry its conjecture to me. The council are not nasty folk. I’ve witnessed 4×4’s on Roych. I was gobsmacked at how two vehicles ripped it up and a circa 1ton rock was cracked infront of our eyes.

    i have to agree

    secondly

    Just to clear up a few things. We actually work closley with the CTC and are insured through them too. There are some areas that their orgainisation can work well in and other which are more limited. The same applies to us.

    The best way that any mountain bike groups/advocates/organisations and just riders can work is together. Bitching and moaning amongst and about ourseleves is a futile exercise

    Shared use tracks are exactly that and a land manager has to be able to meet everyones needs. They have to do the work, but how they do it can sometimes be contentious.
    In Sheffield we hopefully have tuned a corner and are now consulted on all work to be done. We input on it and are considered in the design proccess. In Derbyshire, little if anyone is consulted. Which is the problem. They are also delivering a lot of the Peak Parks work, as they can afford to do it.

    We are doing our best to engage better with DCC as well as groups such as Peak Horse Power. We are also working on a specific strategy for what is mentioned in the original post. We will post up on the website when we have info.

    While our name is Ride Sheffield we will do our best to help with Peak based issues, until a more peak based group get set up

    Thanks
    RS

    And i have said this before who said we need representing and who elected half the groups out there to do it for us

    so persoanally i think its twaddle wether you gobble up the small breadcrumbs the councils decide to appease you with and claim it as some form of victory or not,

    WONT STOP ME RIDING

    Premier Icon Pook
    Subscriber

    Bit unfairly harsh there composite pro. I think it’s fair to say that by having groups such as RS doing some level of campaigning, or at the very least opening dialogue with the authorities, the chances of some of the communal pot of cash being spent in our favour goes up whereas before it was at zero – and that can’t in any way be a bad thing can it?

    compositepro
    Member

    Bit unfairly harsh there composite pro. I think it’s fair to say that by having groups such as RS doing some level of campaigning, or at the very least opening dialogue with the authorities, the chances of some of the communal pot of cash being spent in our favour goes up whereas before it was at zero – and that can’t in any way be a bad thing can it?

    Maybe so in some folks eyes it might be harsh ….its one of those be burned by the majority for your opinion the supporters of said groups

    i think its very naive to publicly say we have an input with anything council related , being a cynical bastard i think its more of a box ticking excercise on their part “have we listened to everyone” yep ok then …

    surely DCC listened when they tarmac , and i think there was a rant on this very forum regards it
    and sanitize everything to the point where there are folks on forums complaining about trails being sanitized….mountain biking was you a bike and the terrain presented ,have fun

    Sorry but in 20 years of riding wharncliffe and the peaks all i have seen is issue after issue arise the more interaction that goes on with councils and groups

    My apologies for maybe my tone as I’m not a great putter of my thoughts into writing genius but thats the way i see it and if they did say ooh you cant do that sonny im more than happy to say ….er see these two fingers

    Premier Icon Pook
    Subscriber

    But if we’re talking about Greno, say, that very interaction with a group – in that case the woodlands trust – has resulted in the fantastic tracks up there.

    And the issue with DCC is that they simply don’t consult at all as I understand it.

    compositepro
    Member

    Pook Im not having a go !!

    In my experience I/we never had a problem before

    Now Greno got very popular, there were trails there already ,some very very good ones, , I’m not nocking the work (just because i don’t personally agree with it) ,but then more trails got built and more folks started arriving, then it all got very political , folks go on about sustainability and the face of the peaks and the countryside change quite naturally wether we accelerate it or not

    My only point is there was no problem before we just went and rode up there

    I now just ride the langsett end and cut gate end of the landowners estate ,

    Premier Icon Garry_Lager
    Subscriber

    vickypea – Member

    Hora – I have never even come across a horse on a bridleway while mountain biking in the Peak District (which is once or twice every week). They are always walking on the road (and crapping outside our house!) You see a lot of horses round the Roman Lakes bws, West end of the Peak. In fact I passed one this weekend that encapsulates this thread – slowly clip-clopping down the Strawberry hill descent that has recently been sanitised.

    Premier Icon Pook
    Subscriber

    No I know you’re not.

    I guess it was easier when there were far fewer riders though. Now there’s so many more of us, having some ‘official body’ representing us is the only way we’ll get a say on what’s going on rather than being seen as hooligans in the woods. As you know, it only takes one nob to spook a horse and we’re all tarred with the same idiot brush, regardless of how many more of us ride respectfully.

    We might not all agree on what groups like RS do, debate, or claim success for – but there’s nothing stopping us all getting involved and making our voices, dissenting or otherwise, heard to that group. Better to settle our differences ‘internally’ so to speak before other groups get a chance to knock us down for lack of organisation or unity. If that’s as part of something like RS then so be it.

    vickypea
    Member

    Garry Lager- I ride a lot round Roman Lakes, but mostly after dark, which would explain why I haven’t seen a horse there! That newly sanitised bit is awful.

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