I was reading the thread about Lee Quarry and the subject of paying to ride came up. It got me thinking. Much as I love “traditional” mountain biking – OS maps, romps over the moors, getting lost etc – I can see the appeal in large purpose built facilities where you can hire decent bikes, pay for uplifts, have a beer half way up the hillside. It’s served the ski and snowboard industry well for years and – abroad at least – it is working for mountain biking.

It could also be cheaper for some of us (like me) who don’t actually get to ride as often as we’d like, making it hard to justify spending thousands on a bike. If I could hire a quality full susser for £50?? a day and have a few weekends away each year in mountain bikes “resorts” I’d be happy. I’d still have a bike for romping up and over the moors and playing in the woods of course, but it wouldn’t be £3-4k of full susser.

Is most of the UK just too small to do this?

I’d only pay to ride a set of long, dry, fast trails. Regardless of the weather…

Otherwise I’ll just ride in the wilderness on bridleways etc!

Last time I looked, bike hire at CYB was in the region of 50-55 pounds a day for a decent AM bike. I’d pay that for a few days a year rather then drop a chunk of cash on buying one for the odd day I need it.

The catch is logistics: at CYB we often start from trail mid-point rather than the centre (depending where we’re staying) and at other places (eg Landegla) it’s bikes-off-roof and go. The group wouldn’t want to wait for me to faff about in the shop, and fair enough really.

As I mentioned in the Lee Quarry thread, its an interesting subject and as you point out, seems to serve other sports well.

There are places popping up now to cater for this (kinda). Isn’t UK Bikepark or whatever its called like this? Antur-Stiniog or whatever its called? The place near where the Athertons live etc? All downhill biased but they seem to be working. I wouldn’t even be too bothered about uplifts etc. I’d be more bothered about absolutely perfect trails… the kinda stuff you dream about. Literally 2 or 3 miles of perfect sweeping (dirt) singletrack with nice climbs and stuff. I know the likes of GT, CyB etc kinda cater for this already but I’m talking the next level from that.

Main problem is area. We only live on a little island so getting a piece of land where access could be managed, with some big hills but with the trails in a compact enough area to be easily accessable for maintenance etc might be tough.

I pay for my Woburn permit (that didn’t even get checked by the rangers once last year) and that’s about it other than the odd trail centre ride. Don’t think many places in the UK are worth driving to or paying for tbh! Paid my season pass for a Whistler lift ticket in summer 2011, now that was worth every penny/cent 😀 Will probably pay for a corby skatepark membership this year as well.

I don’t really like bridleway riding, it’s boring. Honestly prefer riding on the road 0_0

Happy to pay for parking to fund trails (within reason) happy to pay for uplift, not really worth hiring a bike as I use them far too often.

If people put the work in I am happy to fund it.

If people put the work in I am happy to fund it.

This is really the crux of my question. I’d be interested how far “trail centres” can go and it depends largely on how many people think this is a good idea. I’m no downhiller but I’d pay to hire a big(ish) bike to throw down some purpose built downhill trails and then get a lift back up. I’d never dream of walking back up a ski slope and have long since given up on the economics of owning my own skis/snowboard. Same thing really.

I think it’s pretty simple- if you don’t want to pay, you can avoid it by not riding at any of the places that charge. I can go for a ride in the hills for free any time, but very happy to pay the small amount of money required to go and ride somewhere else.

People who go to places then dodge the parking fee etc really piss me off tbh- it’s a tiny part of the cost of riding.

tilltortoise – Member

Is most of the UK just too small to do this?

nope.

you don’t need mountains; the A-line at whistler, one of the most famous Dh runs in the world, only drops 300m. And you could do a bloody good job with half that.

and who needs chairlifts anyway? – a good climb, with an easy gradient and lots of switchbacks can be loads of fun 🙂

The group wouldn’t want to wait for me to faff about in the shop, and fair enough really

Great bunch of friends that 🙂

From my perspective, there’s little point. I have a bike that can do trailcentres better than my abilities, XC quicker than i can pedal, climb, descend…. i’m the onle holding my bike back.

Ok, it can’t do 6′ drops…. neither can i so that’s all good

and who needs chairlifts anyway? – a good climb, with an easy gradient and lots of switchbacks can be loads of fun

So a trail centre then?

I wonder whether the advent of mountain biking as an activity holiday rather than as a pastime is upon us. There will also be plenty of people – including me – who will explore the bridleways, but I reckon there’s a new breed of rider who goes abroad once or twice a year, hires a big bike and rides stuff they can’t ride in the UK.

Is there anywhere in the UK that could potentially compete with that?

richmtb – Member

So a trail centre then?

exactly!

except most trail centres don’t do the easy climbing switchbacks very well*, which puts people off, and leads to daft requests for chairlifts.

i’d happily pay for a ‘better’ trail centre.

Innerleithen; you don’t need a chairlift, you need a swoopy blue run – that would bring the families** in for a fraction of the cost.

(*Ae starts off brilliantly, my Gf was riding DOWN the fireroad so she could do laps of the first bit of climb – and she claims to hate climbing)

(**Dher’s sleep in their van, families want/need something nicer)

I too pay the Woburn permit which I don’t have an issue with. Im with Tom on the bridal way issue, I’ve ridden the good trails and TBH id rather ride the street on my BMX than crunch miles of flat path (I do that with the wife and kids). I don’t get out nearly enough to explore the country and find areas of wild with amazing “natrual singletrack” so play areas are perfect at this moment.

rides stuff they can’t ride in the UK.

Is there anywhere in the UK that could potentially compete with that?

Not as you’ve put it there, but I reckon Fort William DH is the closest to a bike resort that we’ve got. Gondola to the top, an XC route and more trails dotted around the area.

We don’t want MTBing to follow the same route as skiing do we? I ski also, but only do it for one, maybe 2 weeks a year due to cost constraints – I try to get out on my MTB twice a week. If I had to pay every time then it would also become a costly pastime and more difficult to justify

I have heard an argument that, whilst I don’t personally agree with it is of relevance.

It goes something like this:

We live in a country with lots of people and not as much land as other countries and land that has lots of pressures on it – farming, recreation, wildlife protection etc. We also live in a county with a nasty health and safety culture. If you increasingly promote trail centres, citing convenience, economic benefits, safe environment etc. might this increasingly lead to an argument that those places are where this activity should take part and therefore pressure to reduce the access of cyclists to natural trails citing, erosion, usage pressure, farming needs and worries that natural trails aren’t as safe.

Personally I don’t think it holds water as it assumes the most extreme attitudes of land owners, rights of way officers, government etc. will prevail (which I think if we’re keeping an eye on them won’t be the case) but it is an argument I’ve heard.

climbing walls have led to more people climbing, which has led to more places to go climbing…

(indoors and outdoors)

re renting a bike, a few shops will let you demo a bike for a day (maybe a weekend) for £50odd, and if you really like the bike, they refund it off the purchase price 🙂

But if you lived near a ski resort then the cost constraints wouldn’t be as severe? Season ticket, set of skis, jobs a good un.

I think there should be some cost associated with biking if it meant better trails, even if it paid for one full time trail pixie to maintain existing and build new. Plus giving a bit of cash back to the land owners would be no bad thing for letting us use their land.

I think you missed the point about sking etc. You don’t pay to ski in a resort, you pay for the lift to the top. Nothing to stop you XC sking to the top except fitness and time. The resort itself will be funded from a variety of places, the chairlifts, taxes, etc.

You can’t compare downhill sking with XC MTB. XC MTB and XC sking, and DH MTB and DH Sking are comparable modles though.

As for renting, I’d not pay £50+ to ride at Stainburn (brilliant through it is). And £50/day? that’s £150/weekend, £1800 a year (assuming you only visit once a month and ride Friday/Saturday/Sunday).

Innerleithen; you don’t need a chairlift, you need a swoopy blue run – that would bring the families** in for a fraction of the cost.

There’s one at GT just up the road though, Inners is somewhere a bit different, more like Artur Stiniog, the trails are designed to be uplifted and that’s what people come for.

I have no issue with people paying to ride a facility that takes investment to build and maintain, a range of facilities to suit the various types of mountain bikers in the UK would be a good thing. My only concern is that if such facilities became commonplace then would the attitude of the governing authorities change in regard to the free trail network?

Would the paid for facilities be viewed as a way of containing the sport into managed areas and give leverage to groups that would rather mtb’s had less rather than more access to the rest of the countries free trail network?

Innerleithen; you don’t need a chairlift, you need a swoopy blue run – that would bring the families** in for a fraction of the cost.

And where exactly at Innerleithen could you put a ‘swoopy’ blue run, its pretty much situated on the side of a hillside that if any steeper would be a cliff!

Go to GT for that, its only a few miles up the valley and has everything the poster asks for (except the uplift bit, which could be done with one person not riding per descent).

I would in theory – be happy to pay to ride something like an omni-glentress if it got built somewhere.

Probably wouldn’t pay a specific riding charge for any trail centre currently in the UK that I know of – I like them fine but they don’t offer anything really special beyond weather-proofing (which is not to be sneezed at). If you’re talking miles and miles of technical singletrack in the woods, though, then that’s a different story.

Be interested to know if there was any forest in the UK with potential to be an omni-Glentress, that wasn’t already getting the ass end ridden off it by mountain bikers. Doubt it tbh.

ahwiles – Member

and who needs chairlifts anyway? – a good climb, with an easy gradient and lots of switchbacks can be loads of fun

Nobody needs chairlifts, but with a good uplift you can do a lot more descending, which for most people is why they climb. (and as anyone who’s done uplift riding knows, it’s not an easier option- a day on the downhill at fort william kicks the bejeezus out of me in a way that a day pedalling round the XC doesn’t)

I don’t mind climbing but if I can do 10 or 12 runs by uplift vs 2 or 3 runs by pedal, I’ll do it, every time.

And tbh we suck at this. I spent a week in the tarantaise valley last year with White Room, and it wasn’t “here is an uplifted trail”, it was “here’s a trail. There’s probably an uplift”. Even Sainte Foy resort has a wee uplift bus, and there were allsorts using it- wee kids, old boys on ancient rigids… Loads of UK riding locations could do that. But instead I reckon we have less uplifted trails in the entire country than they have just at Tignes.

b r – Member

And where exactly at Innerleithen could you put a ‘swoopy’ blue run, its pretty much situated on the side of a hillside that if any steeper would be a cliff!

Run it across the hillside instead of doing a fall line, make it as long as you want.

I agree with Adam, climbs need to be better not just a fire road before I’ll pay to ride. I have no problem with paying for parking

Remember where GT is though, a 6 hour drive for the majority of the poulation, it needs to be free to fourfill it’s aim to attract tourism to the area.

Aston hill is in the south east, is much smaller than Innerliethen, and charges.

Swinley seems to be lurching towards the SE’s first half arsed* attempt at a free trail center.

*there’s no hill, could the crown estate not have put the money into somewhere with a hill?

Run it across the hillside instead of doing a fall line, make it as long as you want.

Have you ridden inners? How many familys would look at the first climb out of the car park which doesn’t level off for a good mile or so, and go home? The only flat enough bit would be to build a car park/road upto where the red route levels out and heads away from the DH runs.

Leave inners to the gravity and take the swoopy to GT.

Mountain biking will work as a business if it’s done right, as above tarantaise valley is awesome and has worked a few things out. Riding is riding and just because you don’t want the partake doesnt mean it wont work.

Variety is great & riding is fun

I would have no issue with people paying to ride a facility that takes investment to build and maintain.

This ^^

So when I do ride at trail centres ,I like the fact that someone a lot faster ( and more skilled ) than me has planned out the trails.This means I don’t have to worry too much about landing spots or working out the best line .

IMHO Paying to ride is the only real way a large group of people (I.e. not just a group of mates) can ride purpose-built trails, be it single track or downhill runs.

Don’t get me wrong, I love riding in the Peaks or the local woods as much as anyone- but if you want to ride berms, jumps and drops there’s not much on offer outside trail centres.

Hiring a good bike is a great idea but I wonder if the cost of such a scheme is prohibitive for a lot of places. The cost of the bike is high (Even buying at trade price) then there is a considerable amount of maintenance to do on a bike used daily (Especially ridden in welsh grit for example) plus consumables like tyres, pads, transmission, cables etc.

b r – Member

Go to GT for that, its only a few miles up the valley and has everything the poster asks for (except the uplift bit, which could be done with one person not riding per descent).

i wouldn’t go for a week’s holiday without my girlfriend, she’s a blue-runner, there’s not enough at GT to keep her interested for a more than 1 day. So, we only pass through, stopping for 1 night at most.

We use GT/Inners as a place to stop on our way further north, we’d stop longer for more blue trails.

thisisnotaspoon – Member

there’s one (a swoopy blue) at GT just up the road though,

exactly, there’s ONE, and it’s fantastic, it’s enough reason visit, but not for very long.

i’d happily pay for more trails, and i’ll even bring my tourist £££ with me.

🙂

I agree with Adam, climbs need to be better not just a fire road

It’s been years since I’ve done it so maybe it’s changed but I used to enjoy the climb on The Wall at Afan. ST at the start beautiful deciduous forest at the top. It changes the whole experience of the ride.

So in a few years time will “downhill” become an activity rather than a type of bike? I love riding traditional XC up and down, but I do have more fun going down than up. When I rode in Austria few years ago I LOVED chatting to mates in the lift on the way up and then screaming back down again on the bike. I didn’t have a downhill bike though. More and more of us want to make the most of our riding time so I do think uplifts – paid for of course – have a big future. I hope 🙂

mattjg – Member

It’s been years since I’ve done it so maybe it’s changed but I used to enjoy the climb on The Wall at Afan.

if it’s the one i’m thinking of, it is (was?) peachy.

ahwiles – Member

climbing walls have led to more people climbing, which has led to more places to go climbing…

(indoors and outdoors)

Good point, but dont you think that indoor walls will be the only climbing that some people will experience, in much the same way that trail centres are the only riding that some people will experience? How many people who learn to climb on artificial walls wil progress to the likes of Froggat Edge, Gordale, the Lakes or Snowdonia?

I live 15 minutes drive from Lee Quarry, and 40 minutes from Gisburn Forest and to be honest I find them mind-numbingly dull. I’d far rather spend four or five hours using and finding “real” trails out in the country than riding the same old thing over and over.

I understand that there are some parts of the country that are badly served by “natural” and where trail centres become a necessity, but I can’t for the life of me understand people who will happily sling the bike in the car and drive for an hour to Gisburn or Lee Quarry when in the same time you could be in the Yorkshire Dales, South Pennines or Peak District which have far more possibilities.

I think the problem is that for many people coming “cold” into mountain biking in the last few years, who maybe have no experience of the outdoors in general and don’t know how to go exploring (or maybe are scared to do so??) see trail centres as the be-all and end-all and eventually find it difficult (or undesireable) to break out of the cycle. Which is a shame because they don’t know what they’re missing.

Don’t get me wrong, I love places like Kirroughtree, Llandegla and such like but given that we have so much natural at our disposal outside of the trail centres, I think it’s a real pity that an increasing number of mountain bikers will never enjoy it.

Northwind – Member
I think it’s pretty simple- if you don’t want to pay, you can avoid it by not riding at any of the places that charge. I can go for a ride in the hills for free any time, but very happy to pay the small amount of money required to go and ride somewhere else.

People who go to places then dodge the parking fee etc really piss me off tbh- it’s a tiny part of the cost of riding.
^This^, especially the parking bit.

johnellison – Member

How many people who learn to climb on artificial walls wil progress to the likes of Froggat Edge, Gordale, the Lakes or Snowdonia?

some will, some won’t, good luck to all of them, fwiw i spend most of my climbing time at ‘the works’, because it means i can climb after work with my friends.

I live 15 minutes drive from Lee Quarry, and 40 minutes from Gisburn Forest and to be honest I find them mind-numbingly dull. I’d far rather spend four or five hours using and finding “real” trails out in the country than riding the same old thing over and over.

i live on the edge of the peak district, i’ll happily drive for a few hours to ride a trail with (whispers) corners, that isn’t a wind-battered bog for 11.5 months of the year, that doesn’t require miles of tarmac-linking.

I understand that there are some parts of the country that are badly served by “natural” (trails)

yes, most notably the

Yorkshire Dales, South Pennines or Peak District

where simply finding a bridleway on a map can become a little bit like ‘where’s wally’…

(footpath, footpath, footpath, footpath, bri… no … footpath, etc.)

Don’t get me wrong, I love places like Kirroughtree, Llandegla and such like but given that we have so much natural at our disposal outside of the trail centres, I think it’s a real pity that an increasing number of mountain bikers will never enjoy it.

SSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! It keeps the car park dwellers off the good (natural) stuff 😉

I understand that there are some parts of the country that are badly served by “natural” and where trail centres become a necessity, but I can’t for the life of me understand people who will happily sling the bike in the car and drive for an hour to Gisburn or Lee Quarry when in the same time you could be in the Yorkshire Dales, South Pennines or Peak District which have far more possibilities.

I’d think the most common reason for not doing that sort of ‘proper’ riding is that a lot of folks don’t have the time or the knowledge or confidence to plan routes on maps and then navigate their way around them, stopping every time they’re not sure of the way they’re going. At a trail centre you can get on your bike & ride without the worry of getting lost or stopping to read maps.

I think the real vs. trail centre debate is a bit disingenuous.

If I have 2-3 hours on a Saturday afternoon and haven’t had to time to prep a proper route why wouldn’t I jump in the car for a quick whizz round Gisburn?! (which I think has some fantastic bits on, btw).

Think there’s a bit of snobbery with trail centres. If you ride them somehow you are not ‘in the know’, or not a real cyclist. Which is nonsense.