Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 53 total)
  • Overtime and holiday pay
  • ninfan
    Free Member

    Initial reports are that a tribunal has ruled that holiday pay should be based on earnings including voluntary overtime

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29896810

    I recall a bunch of us querying this some years ago, since our wages were boosted by around a quarter with overtime, and we made a real effort to build up our weekend overtime around time off on holiday, as we lost out a fair chunk otherwise. It was discussed by us at the time that it was an open secret that basic wages were kept down so that we would do the weekends, as one of the few jobs on site that needed 7 day staffing

    At the same time, if this is backdated, it could hit some companies really very hard.

    We’ll have to see how far it can be backdated of course – potentially worth about three to four grand for me 😯

    johndoh
    Free Member

    It’ll take years to sort it out – I can’t see anything ever coming of it.

    But surely overtime is just that – if you get paid a basic, when you are on holiday you should be paid the basic, not what you might have earned if you had done overtime in that particular timeframe.

    the-muffin-man
    Free Member

    Another reason for companies not to take on more staff – the red tape of employing is getting ever longer.

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    jam-bo
    Full Member

    overtime? whats that?

    milky1980
    Free Member

    My company calculate your holiday pay based on the last 3 months wages so this has been the norm for me for a while now. Usually adds 20% to my basic salary.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Johndoh

    It’s tough, you could argue that it should depend just how compulsory that voluntary overtime was

    If it made up the normal pattern of your work, and you were expected to do it whether you wanted to or not, then should you suffer financially because the law and employer mandated you had to have the day off?

    At the same time, I’m sure others would argue that employers should not be rewarded for understaffing, ie employing nine people to do the work of ten, because they save on holiday pay and taxes.

    At the same time, I’m sure others would argue that employers should not be rewarded for understaffing, ie employing nine people to do the work of ten, because they save on holiday pay and taxes.

    With this ruling, would there come a point where it would be cheaper for a company to employ more people on a baisc wage to avoid having to pay existing empolyees overtime? Or do the other employment costs always outweigh taking on extra staff?

    johndoh
    Free Member

    My company calculate your holiday pay based on the last 3 months wages

    That sounds fairer and a good solution.

    chakaping
    Free Member

    overtime? whats that?

    Holiday pay? What’s that?

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Chakaping if you’re working for yourself then you have other nice dodges to boost your income. If you’re a wage slave then it’s now a contractual requirement (thank you EU commission).

    (Three edits to get your name right, bloody autocorrect)!!

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    I guess it all comes down to how voluntary it is, frankly if that overtime is week in week out its not really overtime and should be staffed (I believe in Germany there are big penalties for companies having regular overtime rather than employing enough people though I accept this is hear say so stand ready to be corrected)

    Personally I’d have no problem with it going forward assuming the ruling took effect say six months from now, as it would give time for companies to recruit to fill the vacancies getting rid of overtime creates – in theory it will increase employment, possibly create some completion for a work force and push wages up – or accept the costs of keeping the overtime and paying holiday. The issue comes if they back date which will be crippling for a lot of companies.

    Of course the unions will be up in arms of the overtime goes as they’ll want their cake as well as eating it.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    then you have other nice dodges to boost your income

    What dodges are those?

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    EDIT: your phone, your car/transport, your work clothes, your laptop, your meal at work are all tax deductible. Oddly I have to get to work and eat whilst there and I am not allowed to be naked either

    Its clearly a swings and roundabout thing as i get holiday pay and sick pay etc

    if you get paid a basic, when you are on holiday you should be paid the basic, not what you might have earned if you had done overtime in that particular timeframe.

    You should get paid based on what you ACTUALLY work not the theoretical minimum you can work but what you really work

    It will hit some companies but they have been robbing from us for years by this practice

    monkeyfudger
    Free Member

    Just discussing this, it winds me right up at work the fact they call it “overtime” yet there’s no choice at all about whether you actually want to work every other Sat.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    your phone, your car/transport, your work clothes, your laptop, your meal at work are all tax deductible

    Depends on what you do. You cannot claim for clothes (except for work-specific clothes such as work boots for a builder, whites for a chef), no-one can claim for meals (unless it is an overnight stay).

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Hi everyone I am back, just in case anyone is concerned I am not trolling 🙂

    This seems a most bizarre ruling to me. I have no doubt it will be appealed and/or contracts will be re-written, the worst case scenario would suggest even more zero-hours contracts.

    How can someone be entitled to be paid overtime when on holiday, yes you should be paid for what you actually work but on holiday you are not actually working. I fully appreciate the issue where employees are expected to work overtime and that becomes the “norm” but contractually the employer has the flexibility to reduce overtime if the business doesn’t warrant it, that’s better than laying people off.

    EDIT: clothes are only tax deductable if they are specialist. Likewise meals are only tax deductable, ie an expense, if they are exceptional, eg due to extra late working or travel or when entertaining for business purposes (eg client or supplier)

    chewkw
    Free Member

    Looks like another nail in the British industry …

    Bye bye employment and hello zero hour EU/non-EU migrant contractors.

    😀

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    it will hit some companies but they have been robbing from us for years by this practice

    of course had people not (for the most part) been happy with the way these things worked they could simply have not done the overtime. They could in practice have taken a second job which did pay holiday in the same hours as they worked overtime.

    For years people have been “happy” with the status quo and should the impact be retroactively applied will now benefit from changes to something they entered into as a willing party. They’ve not been robbed, they sold (themselves) at a price they were happy with.

    HoratioHufnagel
    Free Member

    How can someone be entitled to be paid overtime when on holiday, yes you should be paid for what you actually work but on holiday you are not actually working.

    Isn’t the justification for paid overtime on holiday the same as for paid normal work when on holiday?

    Why would someone working 10 hours + 30 ‘overtime’ every week have less holiday pay than someone working 40 hours?

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    How can someone be entitled to be paid overtime when on holiday, yes you should be paid for what you actually work but on holiday you are not actually working

    I don’t think it’s a case of being paid overtime when on holiday. It comes down to the calculation of weekly (or daily) pay that holiday pay is based on. If you are “required” or “expected” to work overtime then that becomes the normal working week – arguably it isn’t overtime at all. If overtime was truly voluntary (as IMO it should be) then I doubt this case would ever have been brought.

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    they call it “overtime” yet there’s no choice at all

    Surely that’s not voluntary then? Obligated hours being “sold” as overtime is surely an entirely different issue?

    ninfan
    Free Member

    How can someone be entitled to be paid overtime when on holiday, yes you should be paid for what you actually work but on holiday you are not actually working. I fully appreciate the issue where employees are expected to work overtime and that becomes the “norm” but contractually the employer has the flexibility to reduce overtime if the business doesn’t warrant it, that’s better than laying people off.

    the EC regulation was that people had to have X weeks holiday at ‘Normal pay’ – the interpretation of this was not including overtime. There was case law a few years back where someone challenged this with regard to overtime and the tribunal ruled that contractual overtime would be included (ie. Where your contract stated you worked x hours per week plus y hours overtime) but not mandatory or voluntary overtime, even if this was normal

    I think one of the other aspects today was a bloke working for British Gas where his basic wage only made up 40% of his wages, the rest was commission, if he was off on holiday then he only got paid at basic wage rate!

    I looked back at 2001 tax year, and I grossed 24k on a 14.5k basic, overtime was part of the job (7 day a week cover was required, and we had an overtime rota for weekends, if someone was off sick, we had to pick up their work and cover it, but got paid overtime) I would say that my ‘normal weekly wage’ included overtime earnings.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    How can someone be entitled to be paid overtime when on holiday, yes you should be paid for what you actually work

    this is what this does , it pays you what you would normally earn via work.
    As ninfan notes the fairest way to calculate is just work out hat you earnt hat year and divide it. if this includes commission or OT then so be it.
    I assume it will also apply to sick pay now as well

    Stoner
    Free Member

    +1 what dangerbrain said.

    Its a matter of definition above all else. This will apply to mandatory “overtime” contracts. And really in the process “overtime” in this instance should have a new name to make the distinction between voluntary and normal required business hours.

    I propose three types of wage hours:
    1) poo time – standard 39hrs work time
    2) double poo time – those hours required to be worked as part of shift patterns or normal business.
    3) fap time – when you volunteer for out of hours cover and know no one else will be there to catch you fapping.

    milky1980
    Free Member

    johndoh – they kind of had to as it’s not a job where you can work up to your contracted 39 hour then just go home, a bit of overtime is inevitable (involves driving with long distances involved). They were given the option of paying holiday pay based on average hours worked or having staff en mass returning to base when they were close to their hours then standing around idle until clocking-out time.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Good point on the sick pay junkyard!

    dangeourbrain
    Free Member

    his basic wage only made up 40% of his wages, the rest was commission, if he was off on holiday then he only got paid at basic wage rate!

    The assumption by me here is that his commission is based on the direct production of his results and that when he signed his contact he knew that and he knew he wouldn’t be producing when he wasn’t there. I’m also assuming he didn’t cry foul when he had a good period and earned more commission than usual.

    If on the other hand his commission was a result of his input/output alone then not paying it when he’s not effecting [what ever it is based on] does seem grossly unreasonable.

    StefMcDef
    Free Member

    My rota involves a certain amount of compulsory overtime – where you are on call and obliged to work in case of sickness or absence – and a certain (larger) amount of voluntary overtime.

    I’ve been with my employer a good few years now so any backdated pay award would add up to a significant sum.

    However, if it means they slash overtime as a result of this ruling it will be a sad day for the STW Classifieds forum cos that’s where my spare/extra/pocket money comes from.

    ac282
    Full Member

    Surely all its saying is that you should accrue a paid holiday allowance while doing overtime just as you would during normal hours. I don’t see how this is controversial.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    I don’t really accept that Dangerous – the original EU rule was that workers should receive their “normal remuneration” while on holiday

    it was the UK governments interpretation at the time of imposing the working time regulations was that ‘normal renumeration’ didn’t include overtime or commission, and employers followed that advice (and I’ll accept that that means the employers too have been treated shoddily) – I reckon that to 99% of the working population ‘normal renumeration’ means what you normally get paid when you go to work and do your job as expected of you, and that would include your regular overtime/commission.

    I also don’t think that its fair to say that people accepted this or didn’t cry foul, some of us did question it at the time, but we were bound by the governments advice and caselaw at the time – the decision from this tribunal seems to be that that advice and caselaw of the time did not adequately implement the European law on working time.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    Only backdated 3 months apparently.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Danger brain – the flip side is the company did this as they new he would get paid more than his basic so they did it to both avoid their legal and moral obligation re holidays and sick pay. It should be based on what you earn not some cleverly worded contract to minimise the employers payments.

    People used to “sign up” for the dark satanic mills but it was hardly fair or reasonable.
    Its unfair and against the law and , frankly, employers were taking the piss.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Just when I’d stopped being harassed by ambulance chasers and PPI lawyers, now this comes along….. 🙄

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Why would someone working 10 hours + 30 ‘overtime’ every week have less holiday pay than someone working 40 hours?

    With regard to this and the comments above especially regarding commission, yes its to do with what is regarded as normal working time, that I get. Look at it this way if you are a businessman and you sell goods when you are not there (and shop shut) you have no sales, no commission. So you would not expect to be paid anything. I think the way to look at this is that a portion of your overtime and commission should be saved and then released when you are on holiday and not the employer paying your for something you haven’t done/earnt. Likewise I can see a lawyer arguing for sick-pay to include overtime and commission etc but it’s madness.

    Just curious as to whether the overtime in the example of the British Gas employee in he case was at his basic rate of pay or a premium ?

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    it will hit some companies but they have been robbing from us for years by this practice

    Have they though?

    I know my own employers (a pretty big engineering firm) have fits and starts with OT, we try to plan and staff to meet our nominal work throughput, assuming everyone works their contracted hours, we often supplement the core staff workforce with contractors, but sometimes OT working is simply needed, when there isn’t the time to recruit, train and familiarise someone for what might just be a couple of weeks work…

    We bill our clients directly for every hour spent on the work and as a salaried employee I log my hours and have the option to either claim any hours I work over those I’m contracted to, as flat rate pay or more typically as ‘TOIL’. So effectively I already get additional paid holiday for working overtime…

    This seems like a very fair arrangement to me, but apparently it might not be compliant with the letter of this judgement, we’ve been told today that there may be a review of how the company operates it’s overtime/holiday arrangements…

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    I naively thought you just got your annual salary + performance bonus with 40 (or whatever) days holiday and a few B/H days.

    Do you mean some people get payed a different amount depending if it’s a work day or a holiday ? How quaint, must be some working-class thing

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Hill dodger, I was once interviewed for a job in the bike industry whereby of the four criteria that had to be met in order for you to get your ‘performance’ bonus/commission, only one was in your control

    I did laugh when they tried to explain and justify this 😐

    Northwind
    Full Member

    @Ninfan, in my last job in the bank, after they discovered that we did a job that you couldn’t realistically measure and put targets on, they decided that the best thing to do was to base our bonus on the team next door, who did a totally different job 😆

    ninfan
    Free Member

    Well, that’s an effective motivator 🙁

    Maybe in some weird game of thrones style plot they told the team next door that their bonus was based on your teams performance, hoping it would spur you on to mutual success, overlooking the likelihood of you both kicking back and relaxing and letting the other team get on with it… And that ladies and gentlemen is how the global financial crisis started 😆

    project
    Free Member

    any one who works actually wondered how these firms are going to work it, how much is owed to staff, who is going to check the recoprds if any still available, and how is it all going to be paid for.

    Firms will probably shred or destroy time sheets, will ask for all info in triplicate, will take their time, and probably sack or make peeps redundant at minimum rates.

    Its going to be un enforceable anmd jsut be a false hope for many workers.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 53 total)

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