Viewing 40 posts - 2,281 through 2,320 (of 12,715 total)
  • Osbourne says no to currency union.
  • aracer
    Free Member

    I wonder why that is? Could it be because the independence movement is AS’s pet project?

    sbob
    Free Member

    we can get rid of weapons of mass destruction

    The deep fried Mars bar? 😕

    Can’t we just give Scotland independance, then have a no vote, and then use that as an excuse to invade?
    I’d promise to only carpet bomb one of the two places in Scotland. 🙂

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    You are of course correct but rUK has no Plan B that I am aware of

    You don’t appear to have fully grasped what independence for Scotland will actually mean. After independence it will be for Scotland to decide whether they use the rUK currency without agreement, or issue their own currency, or apply for to join the Euro, or use the US dollar, or whatever. The rUK won’t need to come up with any plan at all. They let independent countries decide such issues for themselves.

    .

    Really, though, it’s a side issue – I’m tired of talking about the currency because it’ll all work out okay.

    😕 erm, after this thread experienced a long period of inactivity you suddenly appear to post a link concerning currency union. In your link the author of the report, whose opinion you apparently value, points out that there needs to be a plan B.

    You are now claiming that the whole issue of currency union and whether there is a plan B is a side issue which you’re tired of talking about !

    How about not trawling through the internet looking for articles on post-independence currency arrangements if it’s a side issue which you’re tired of talking about ? 💡 💡 💡

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I wonder why that is? Could it be because the independence movement is AS’s pet project?

    It really isn’t. I lean towards the SSP and Greens a lot more than the SNP, both of whom support independence. Right now, it doesn’t matter who we vote for, we get whatever England wants. After independence, we get who we want.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    a long period of inactivity

    It wasn’t that long, and it was relevant so I thought it would be of interest. Why do you assume that, because I post a link, I support every word of the article and agree with every implication?

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    bencooper – Member
    ….an independent commission said that a currency union would be the best option for everyone

    Hmmm……

    (Heard the news item about the other report allegedly trashing the HM Treasury one on radio while driving to my ride this morning. It’s analysis of the assymtery or risk is interesting even if for unintended reasons. Very clear why if doesn’t work for either side. Still of “academic interest” only as it won’t happen. One party may make a u turn every now and then, but not all three and HMT when the argument is so clear cut)

    After independence, we get who we want.

    I gives me a warm feeling that, the innocence required to believe that still exists is today’s cynical world. 😉

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Why do you assume that, because I post a link, I support every word of the article and agree with every implication?

    No, I assume that if you post a link you’re actually interested in the topic that the link is discussing.

    I don’t expect you to claim that it’s a side issue which you’re not interested in discussing.

    And while you might not agree with everything in a link you did say that claiming there was no plan B was “one of the more stupid things Better Together like to say”. I think we are entitled to know whether you think Prof Leslie Young (whoever he is) says “stupid things”.

    sbob
    Free Member

    It gives me a warm feeling that, the innocence required to believe that still exists is today’s cynical world.

    Same self-serving shysters, different accent.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    You don’t appear to have fully grasped what independence for Scotland will actually mean. After independence it will be for Scotland to decide whether they use the rUK currency without agreement, or issue their own currency, or apply for to join the Euro, or use the US dollar, or whatever. The rUK won’t need to come up with any plan at all. They let independent countries decide such issues for themselves.

    I thought we were debating whether rUK will enter a currency union with iS as this is indeed Plan A. I think we can all agree that rUK has a say in this.

    Again no will disagree that there will be negotiations between both sides in the event of a Yes vote so again it seems reasonable to say rUK has say in what they do/what happens at the separation.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    I thought we were debating whether rUK will enter a currency union with iS as this is indeed Plan A.

    I didn’t think we were. Last I heard the Conservatives, Labour, and the LibDems, all ruled out currency union. Since the next UK/rUK government is likely only include politicians from those parties then I think we can safely say there will be no currency union.

    The rUK plan B will be/is : “no currency union”

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I didn’t think we were. Last I heard the Conservatives, Labour, and the LibDems, all ruled out currency union.

    They have ruled it out now, before the referendum – after the referendum, they may well realise that it makes more sense to go with the solution that’s best for the rUK.

    IanMunro
    Free Member

    England wants. After independence, we get who we want.

    Funny. I live in England and don’t get who I want.

    sbob
    Free Member

    after the referendum

    We’ll still all be part of the UK. 🙂

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    bencooper – Member
    Iafter the referendum, they may well realise that it makes more sense to go with the solution that’s best for the rUK.

    Is this one of those things that if you say it often enough, some people might actually believe it?

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Funny. I live in England and don’t get who I want.

    Perhaps Scottish independence will help with that – it might be the kick that the rUK needs to do something about the democratic deficit at Westminster. A social democratic Scotland might also be a good inspiration. One thing the independence debate has done, which is great no matter what the result in September, is get people in Scotland interested and talking about politics again.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Is this one of those things that if you say it often enough, some people might actually believe it?

    I’m not an economist. I believe it because the independent commission said it and other experts have also said it. The only people I’ve seen who disagree are political leaders (who of course will say anything they have to to get the result they want), and a civil service mandarin.

    I don’t think it’s a cut and dried issue.

    StefMcDef
    Free Member

    IanMunro – Member

    England wants. After independence, we get who we want.

    Funny. I live in England and don’t get who I want.

    But at least you don’t get who Scotland wants.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    But at least you don’t get who Scotland wants.

    To an extent the English do get who Scotland wants to govern them. There is no English parliament, Scotland has a direct say in all issues concerning England and the government departments which govern England.

    I have no idea why there is no English parliament, at least I don’t understand the moral justification for not having one. And the absence of an English parliament is a deeply undemocratic and unacceptable anomaly imo.

    aracer
    Free Member

    It really isn’t.[/quote]

    Oh, so what is his pet project?

    I’m not as naive as ernie – I assumed you only agreed with the bits which support your preconceptions.

    You missed these insignificant chaps then (who you’d think might support a currency union if anybody would, if what AS says is to be believed)
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/17/business-leaders-alex-salmond-currency-union

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    teamhurtmore – Member
    “bencooper – Member
    After independence, we get who we want.”
    I gives me a warm feeling that, the innocence required to believe that still exists is today’s cynical world.

    So fundamentally you believe

    1. democracy doesn’t work, and government is best done by an elite?
    or
    2. Scots are too stupid to run their own country properly?

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Neither actually.

    I don’t believe in fairy tales either.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    You missed these insignificant chaps then (who you’d think might support a currency union if anybody would, if what AS says is to be believed)
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/17/business-leaders-alex-salmond-currency-union

    I didn’t really miss them – but since there’s also lots of business people who are ambivalent about independence, and lots who are pro-independence, it’s probably sensible to count the opinions of the business community as a draw.

    More importantly, I’m still waiting to see these forums where there’s a general consensus I’m a mentalist 😀

    StefMcDef
    Free Member

    But at least you don’t get who Scotland wants.

    To an extent the English do get who Scotland wants to govern them. There is no English parliament, Scotland has a direct say in all issues concerning England and the government departments which govern England.

    I have no idea why there is no English parliament, at least I don’t understand the moral justification for not having one. And the absence of an English parliament is a deeply undemocratic and unacceptable anomaly imo.

    I fully support Ernie in his quest for a greater degree of self-determination for the people of England.

    This historical anomaly, whereby one nation with a questionable mandate holds an undue and unwarranted influence over a neighbour with differing and divergent priorities, does neither party any good in the long run. We should put a stop to it at once.

    Unsatisfactory constitutional arrangements, eh? Who needs ’em? We should have a referendum about it or something.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Yes of course, let’s count any pro-independence business people as equivalent to the leaders of the CBI and the IoD. I would expect nothing less of you.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I fully support Ernie in his quest for a greater degree of self-determination for the people of England.

    Absolutely – the Westminster democratic deficit is even worse for people in the North of England and the South-West than it is for us. The rUK really needs a federal system, like most other democracies have, and something seriously needs doing to the electoral system too.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Yes of course, let’s count any pro-independence business people as equivalent to the leaders of the CBI and the IoD. I would expect nothing less of you.

    Okay, how are we going to score it? By number of businesses on each side? By the number of employees these businesses have? By the turnover, profit, exports or some other financial metric of each of these businesses? How would you determine which side is the winner?

    aracer
    Free Member

    How about you find somebody equivalent to the leaders of the CBI and the IoD who support a currency union? What other business organisations are there of similar standing?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    So fundamentally you believe democracy doesn’t work

    Not the way you think it does. If Scotland votes yes it will be less independent than it is now. For example the City of London will still invest in Scotland but Scotland will lose all regulation and control over it, similarly Scotland will continue to use the pound sterling but lose all influence.

    On another thread someone says “I would be voting Yes to decouple Scotland from a neo-liberal, London-centric Westminster consensus” which betrays a real naivety.

    Firstly an “independent” Scotland will have sign the European Fiscal Compact if it joins the EU which takes control of the economy out of its hands and makes the neoliberal model enforceable by unelected EU Commissioners.

    And secondly all four major parties in Scotland have signed up to the neoliberal consensus. And yes that includes the SNP – cutting corporation tax is pure neolibralism.

    .

    Scots are too stupid to run their own country properly?

    The Scots aren’t stupid, about half of all the British Prime Ministers for the last 150 years have been Scottish or of Scottish descent. Which is quite an achievement bearing in mind that the English outnumber the Scots 10 to 1.

    What would be really stupid would be to give up all that influence.

    duckman
    Full Member

    What would be really stupid would be to give up all that influence.

    Are you able to quantify the effects of that Influence Ernie? Even people in the north of England view Westminster as Southern-centric.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    We should have a referendum about it or something.

    Even better, we should have one that contains the options most people actually want.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Crazy thought I know but

    “Even better, we should could have had the one that contains the option that the book of dreams describes”

    – it certainly isn’t independence

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Are you able to quantify the effects of that Influence Ernie?

    You think political influence has no effect ? That’s a new one on me.

    duckman
    Full Member

    You think political influence has no effect ? That’s a new one on me.

    In that case it should be easy for you to explain the effects. If being part of a union gives us such influence, why is their a referendum in September?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    What a bizarre question. Scotland obviously has political influence. The referendum in September is to decide whether Scotland wishes to be separate from the rest of the UK.

    Please don’t hesitate to ask if you have any more questions 🙂

    whatnobeer
    Free Member

    What would be really stupid would be to give up all that influence.

    How often has a Scottish prime minster resulted in policies that favoured the Scots over anyone else in the UK? Don’t try and make out the Scottish leaders of the big 3 UK parties pander to anyone but their base support and as many of the influential swing constituencies as possible.

    – it certainly isn’t independence

    If you keep saying that over and over again, some of us might starting believing you 🙄

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    How often has a Scottish prime minster resulted in policies that favoured the Scots over anyone else in the UK?

    Why on earth should a UK Prime Minister implement policies which favour the Scots over everyone else?

    And voting Yes will remove all responsibility from UK Prime Ministers to even consider the interests of the Scottish people.

    .

    If you keep saying that over and over again, some of us might starting believing you

    You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but not I’m going to ignore the truth simply because to don’t like it.

    A separate Scotland will have less influence over issues which effect it.

    whatnobeer
    Free Member

    Why on earth should a UK Prime Minister implement policies which favour the Scots over everyone else?

    Exactly. But this is what you were insinuating when you mentioned how many Scottish prime misters we’d had, wasn’t it? Otherwise why bring it up?

    A separate Scotland will have less influence over issues which effect it.

    We’ll obviously need to agree to disagree on that then.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    But this is what you were insinuating when you mentioned how many Scottish prime misters we’d had, wasn’t it? Otherwise why bring it up?

    It is certainly not what I ‘insinuated’.

    I brought it up because there is clear and overwhelming evidence that Scotland has, and has had, very direct influence at the very highest levels of UK politics for at least 150 years.

    This does not however mean that it has been at the detriment of the rest of the UK, why would it need to be ?

    EDIT : AS/SNP now wants a separate Scotland to work in direct competition with the rest of the UK, with the false claim that a corporation tax rate 3% below the UK level will draw investment away from England and Wales and to Scotland. The effect of this kind of strategy will be detrimental to both Scotland and England and Wales (and it certainly won’t help Northern England which so many on here claim to be concerned about) Competition between Scotland and England and Wales will be bad for all parties concerned. Although England will almost certainly come out less scathed.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    ernie_lynch – Member
    How often has a Scottish prime minster resulted in policies that favoured the Scots over anyone else in the UK?
    Why on earth should a UK Prime Minister implement policies which favour the Scots over everyone else?

    They shouldn’t. But well, that’s kinda the point of independence!

    btw few pages back you were on about currency options B, the options are there if you care to look for them. Salmond and sturgeon, have be pretty clear on that(despite the media trying to say otherwise.).

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    ernie_lynch – Member
    …I brought it up because there is clear and overwhelming evidence that Scotland has, and has had, very direct influence at the very highest levels of UK politics for at least 150 years.

    Is that why our people keep having to emigrate to find a living for their family?

    Scotland’s population was just over 5 million 100 years ago. It’s still in the 5 millions. Meanwhile England’s population has risen 40%.

    That doesn’t sound like the cake of opportunity has been spread very evenly.

    If that is influence, it’s not the sort we need.

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