The Tories would love to be rid of us – unfortunately it’s Scottish oil money that props up Tory tax cuts. It’s our oil they want, not us.

I’ve never come across this “them and us” bitter attitude when I’ve been in Scotland, where does it come from?

Don’t like the English, don’t like the Tories, don’t like Labour.
You just come across as being generally miserable. 😆

bencooper – Member

Meanwhile, buried away in today’s budget, Scotland’s block grant is being cut in real terms.

Do you have a link for that? I can’t see it in the budget. Ta.

I’ve never come across this “them and us” bitter attitude when I’ve been in Scotland, where does it come from?

Don’t like the English, don’t like the Tories, don’t like Labour.
It’s pretty much just the Tories we have a problem with, a lot of that stems from the Poll Tax and the rest from them generally being nasty ****. Funnily enough I think most people in Scotland don’t feel nearly as strongly about the Scottish Conservatives.

The Labour hating is mainly just because they’ve been useless for the last 8 years in Scotland and are just as useless down south.

Do you have a link for that? I can’t see it in the budget. Ta.

BBC’s James Cook on twitter says it’s on page 61.

Ben, you did see what he said about NS oil revenues?

At least he left Scotch alone!!!

Budget in full is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/293759/37630_Budget_2014_Web_Accessible.pdf

Don’t like the English, don’t like the Tories, don’t like Labour.

Not sure where you get that from. My partner is English, my father is English, a lot of my family and friends are English. You’d be amazed how many English people in Scotland are voting for independence.

I don’t like New Labour, no, and I detest the Tories. I don’t think that is unusual in Scotland or England.

Meanwhile, buried away in today’s budget, Scotland’s block grant is being cut in real terms.

As are many other areas it seems. NHS, Education are the winners. It was pretty well flagged that public expenditure was going to be cut in real terms, so I’m not sure this is a surprise.

epicyclo. Still struggling with your idea of democracy tbh.
You talk of decisions being made in Scotland on the future of Scotland.

Earlier in this thread you stated it was undemocratic for not allowing a vote in rUK. The UK should have “insisted on it”

When it was then pointed out that the rUK could then vote Scotland out of the union despite a majority of Scots supporting the union, you said you would “be forever grateful to your UK benefactors”.

Here is the punchline.

This would result in a democratic Scotland, free to made decisions on the future path of Scotland. We will not be told what to do by Westminster. Hilarious.

This shows a high level disregard for the elected will of the Scottish people I would suggest.

Which other democratic values will go out the window to ensure an independent Scotland.

I think some would be happy for a pissed up Tory MP to make the decision in the Commons bar if the answer was yes. Democracy in action.

I think some would be happy for a pissed up Tory MP to make the decision in the Commons bar 

Isn’t that exactly what’s been happening for the last 4 years?

gordimhor, no.

ben, you say many in the no camp think iS will be like North Korea. I would argue that the yes camp think we live in North Korea at the moment.

athgray – Member
epicyclo. Still struggling with your idea of democracy tbh….

Democracy is simple.

You vote for the members of your government. That government operates without any other master than its electorate.

I realise it may be difficult to comprehend if you’ve been brought up to knuckle your forelock to your “betters” (the unelected elites) and believe their wise guidance is used to work in your best interests.

As Winston said, democracy is not a perfect system, but nothing better has been invented.

When we are independent we will have a proper democracy. Can’t say No to that.

Hah! So naive!

unfortunately it’s Scottish oil money that props up Tory tax cuts. It’s our oil they want, not us.

Rrrrrrrubbish! You’re totally overstating the importance of oil revenue.

The Tories would love to be rid of us – unfortunately it’s Scottish oil money that props up Tory tax cuts. It’s our oil they want, not us.

The fact that the Queen hasn’t sent you a card saying how much you are loved doesn’t mean you aren’t wanted. Now take your skirts off and man up! 😉

bencooper – Member

unfortunately it’s Scottish oil money that props up Tory tax cuts.

What Tory tax cuts ?

The UK tax burden has increased since we’ve had a Tory Chancellor again.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/total-tax-revenue_20758510-table2

For someone who claims to “detest the Tories” you certainly like to swallow their spin and propaganda.

Tax revenue has hardly changed as a percentage of GDP for decades. Nowt to do with Tories or spin. It’s the spending that is the volatile measure – no real surprise there though.

epicyclo. I did not expect an adequate response. Did you get beyond the first line?
You categorically stated that you would be happy if the rUK voted Scotland out of the union even against the wishes of Scottish voters. Put any shit*y spin you like on it, that is not democracy.

Equals not betters. I have never heard such s***e.

I ask this. What lengths are deemed acceptable to gain independence?
Also, what are people prepared to give up for independence?

Chap i know, does Scots renactment stuff, medieval & lace wars.

When he does his speeches to the Scottish crowds he asks the question
“Who is the worst enemy of the Scot?” & the answer is invariably something along the lines of “the bloody English”.
He (being a student of Scottish history) always answers “No, the worst enemy of the Scot is another Scot”.

This thread shows the truth of that.

Athgray you asked

What lengths are deemed acceptable to gain independence?

A free and fair referendum seems acceptable to me.
I really do not see any similarity between any of the campaign leaders in the referendum and Mr Putin or Kim Jong-un. The North Korean regime is systematically starving its own people.You likened our situation in Scotland to Ukraine, are the yes supporters supposed to be like Russia, like the ukraineans or like the ethnic russians in crimea?
You also asked

what are people prepared to give up for independence?

For me that will be a lot of time and such money as I can afford, some shoe leather etc.
What I find unacceptable are things like foodbanks, growing child poverty, etc IDS welfare reforms will (imo) be pushed through by this UK government or the nextno matter what the social cost because of the reduction in the welfare budget they believe they can achieve.
You will note that I do not compare IDS to Kim Jong-un
edit

gordimhor, I agree with your first reply. What ever the result of the referendum should stand. I will not dig my heels in, if the Scottish people have said yes then independence it is.

What I can’t comprehend are those that would take independence for Scotland, even if Scots vote against it, as has been expressed here.

The widening inequality gap in the UK does bother me, and needs fixed. I assert that people that wish independence for Scotland do not care about this, however pretend they do so they can give themselves a pat on the back for their so called socialist credentials.

teamhurtmore – Member

Tax revenue has hardly changed as a percentage of GDP for decades. Nowt to do with Tories or spin.

It has everything to do with spin. The Tories have repeatedly said that they have cut taxes, and people believe them, even those who claim to detest them such as bencooper, and yet as you point out this Tory claim is completely untrue.

If this widely held false belief isn’t the result of spin then I don’t know what is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_%28public_relations%29

BTW to say that the tax burden has “hardly changed as a percentage of GDP for decades” isn’t totally accurate, is it ?

ernie, I admit to not being an economist, but the UK tax burden on that graph varies between 33.5% and 39.2% GDO approx over 25 years. Is that a lot in reality?
As an engineer, when I look at financial graphs, the next thing I do is look at the scale of the Y axis.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/04/thatcher-and-north-sea-oil-–-failure-invest-britain’s-future

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch37-thatcher.htm

ben. Isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing in politics? She is still dead by the way!

athgray – Member
epicyclo. I did not expect an adequate response. Did you get beyond the first line?

…I ask this. What lengths are deemed acceptable to gain independence?

Also, what are people prepared to give up for independence?

Yup, read it, Another of your red herrings and deliberate misconstructions, so I didn’t bite.

A referendum is the civilised way to gain independence.

Independence is gaining something, not giving something up.

ben. Isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing in politics? She is still dead by the way!

You’re saying no-one at the time thought that Thatcher’s policies were a very bad idea?

Thatcher’s dead, Thatcherism is very much alive – that’s why we need independence.

epicyclo, I only pointed out what you actually wrote. No red herrings there. You would happily accept independence even if Scotland votes against it.
ben, you wrote that if meaningful devo max were on the table you would probably vote for it. Why do I not believe you?

Is that a lot in reality?

Well more than “hardly changed” imo. And if they had managed to cut the tax burden by 6% I’m sure they would have claimed it was a huge success.

But the reality is that for most of the time that the Tories were in government between 1979-1997 the tax burden was considerably higher than it had been before they were elected. And since the Tories returning to government the tax burden is now slightly higher than it was in 2010.

The Tories claim to cut taxes but they do not cut taxes. The reason people think they do is because of very effective spin.

She may be dead but Thatcherism is not (unfortunately) and according to wikipedia many people were able to make a good assessment of Mrs T in the 80s

At the 1987 General Election, the Conservatives had their number of Scottish seats lowered from 21 to 10, their worst performance since before World War I. They lost the seats of Aberdeen South, Angus East, Argyll and Bute, Banff and Buchan, Cunninghame North, Edinburgh Central, Edinburgh South, Fife North East, Moray, Renfrew West and Inverclyde and Strathkelvin and Bearsden.

ben, you wrote that if meaningful devo max were on the table you would probably vote for it. Why do I not believe you?

No idea, I’m normally very believable 😉

I was serious – but since Devo Max isn’t on the table (nor anything remotely near it) it’s an academic question.

The successful candidate for Banff and Buchan in 1987

Fair enough ben. I think a no vote can provide devo max. I disagree with your assessment that it will not, however respect your stance. epicyclo, I still reckon your response is wanting.

Shame on you Banff and Buchan. 😉

I think a no vote can provide devo max.

I’m interested – how do you think that’ll happen? Labour have just comprehensively ruled it out, and the Tories haven’t made any concrete suggestions anywhere near Devo Max. Things will definitely change after a No vote, but what would the motivation be for a Westminster government to devolve more power to Soctland?

Shame on you Banff and Buchan.

Yeah imagine electing a Jambo 🙂

they might just do it to stop this thread and start a new one on devo max 😉

athgray – Member
….epicyclo, I still reckon your response is wanting.

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After due consideration, I’ve decided it’s best not to further engage with subpontal denizens.

I suppose the short hand response to you ben, would be that I reckon none of the UK parties want Scotland to leave, and if devo max does not happen, Scotland will be independent within 15-20 years.

Ernie, I am intrigued by your graph. Where did you get it from? The Guardian has a useful graph that compares tax revenue and gov spending as % of GDP. It sources the data from HMT too but the results are different.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/apr/25/tax-receipts-1963

I don’t know how to copy pictures!! But the trend is much flatter supporting my conclusion and indeed the Guardian makes the same point

You can see how the tax receipts projected for 2012-13 are £550.6bn, that is 35.6% of GDP – up since the recession started, but strikingly static for the last few decades.

What you cannot see (directly) from the graph is whether it is the numerator or the denominator that is driving the trend!! . As the guardian asks:

You can also see how they went down in the 1980s – was this recession again or reduced tax rates?

A nice homework question springs to mind!

But for every, “the Tories are the party of tax cuts” there will be a “thatcher cut gov spending” or “this government is a government of austerity” or “income inequality has got worse under this government” – none of which are strictly true, but that doesn’t stop folk spinning the truth!!! Same in the US – are the Republicans or the Democrats the big spenders, did Reagan control spending etc??