How do they “lose more jobs than they create”?

This book gives quite a good explanation of how military spending can be totally counterproductive in actually making people better off. For example spending on the SA80 rather than just buying a gun that worked.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2006/jan/07/highereducation.news

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships, the UK will not give that work to a Foreign country. That is not for debate. The yard will close. Loss of a lot of jobs.

I think the MOD has also said this to be the case. Although I’d also expect short to maybe medium term that some ships would be built in an iScotland.

How do they “lose more jobs than they create”?

Because they’re paid for by taxes. You don’t create jobs by having the government employ more people. When you say

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships

you really mean that commercially-sustainable jobs were taxed out of existence so that the transnational arms company BAe could keep employing a few people.

I am not really debating the “military-industrial complex”.

I was simply highlighting that there are a large number of public sector jobs and connected jobs that will be lost in an iScotland. Many of these are well paid, secure and with good pensions.

FWIW I would much prefer to live in a World without nuclear weapons or any significant military spending. I agree that if we diverted the military spending into more productive areas then things would be a lot better. However, that isn’t going to happen anytime soon.

BAE is kept alive by building RN warships, the UK will not give that work to a Foreign country. That is not for debate. The yard will close. Loss of a lot of jobs.

Oh no! Scotland won’t be involved in building warships! perish the thought. Simple fact is yes the shipbuilding industry in Scotland will get gutted. But it’s gutting the war machine in Scotland, for me that’s a good thing, and should happen.

You don’t create jobs by having the government employ more people.

A lot of left wing politicians would disagree with you there. AS included.

bencooper – Member
Whereas Osborne wants us to take a share of the debt, but not a share of the assets.

Is this one of those things that if you say it enough times, people believe it’s true. A currency is not and cannot (by definition) be an asset. Strictly speaking it is a liability but that is becoming pedantic. AS will be telling us next that deposits in a bank are an asset!!!!

The worrying bit for me is what happens after a No vote. It won’t be devo max. It won’t even be business as usual. It’ll be worse.

And the more wee eck pushes the worse it will get.

I think there are a lot of people who like Scotland, are supporters of higher levels of devolution, and dissatisfied with aspects of Westminster, but are now hoping that wee eck is completely crushed and that the notion gets a bloody nose. That is a great pity, but is a natural outcome of AS’s constant BS, threats and posturing.

teamhurtmore – Member

A currency is not and cannot (by definition) be an asset.

Did we not have this conversation before? It’s a textbook intangible asset. And of course asset has a usage outside of financial reporting. You can only make the “currency is not an asset” argument by using an artificially narrow definition.

If sterling isn’t an asset, how do you fancy starting over tomorrow with the Cameronian Drogna?

grum – Member

It’s just stooping to their level when you make unsubstantiated claims as if they are undisputed facts.

As I say, I don’t believe it’s unsubstantiated. For example, when you look at the national debt figures and see that Scotland’s share is less than a population split, let alone a GNP-split, it’s hard not to believe that Scotland subsidises the RUK. (*)

And that’s OK! Rich bits should support poor bits, that’s the only way countries can work, or any group of people bigger than about 3. I just don’t feel like being given a hard time for it or being told it’s the other way round. And it always feels weird to me that people who’re against independence seem so keen to fuel that pro-independence sentiment.

But I guess that’s just back to the failure to make a positive case for the union. In an attempt to tell us we can’t afford independence, inevitably you have to run down the positive contribution Scotland makes.

(*) Caveat- these figures don’t run up to the present day, so I won’t make claims for exactly how things stand now. But IMO there’s basically no chance that the situation’s reversed since the end of the dataset, the numbers are too big.

bencooper – Member
Not as much as subsidising the Book of Dreams.
At the moment Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK – we contribute 9.9% of the taxes but get back 9.2% of the spending.

Have you got a source for that? I’m genuinely interested as the last figures i saw (for mid-2000s) had it as Scotland gaining £332 net per head

I just don’t feel like being given a hard time for it or being told it’s the other way round.

Not many have given you a hard time though. Most people seem to agree that it’s not really a valid argument and the figures can be used to show different things.

I am not really debating the “military-industrial complex”.

I was simply highlighting that there are a large number of public sector jobs and connected jobs that will be lost in an iScotland. Many of these are well paid, secure and with good pensions.
…and the money for those jobs comes from taxes paid by the less comfortable, less secure and worse-pensioned private sector!

The military-industrial complex doesn’t create wealth, it just captures it. Your suggestion that its disappearance in an independent Scotland will result in net job losses doesn’t stack up: it won’t disappear and if it did, it would be good news for the genuine economy.

konabunny – I don’t think your Thatcherism will be very popular in iScotland.

winston_dog – Member

You don’t create jobs by having the government employ more people.

A lot of left wing politicians would disagree with you there. AS included.

Must be a Scottish thing….

😉

and the money for those jobs comes from taxes paid by the less comfortable, less secure and worse-pensioned private sector!

7

The majority of income tax is paid by the VERY well off so your accounting does not stack up.
Even if this argument was true we should drag everyone up not try and have everyone work for the minimum wage with no pension.

The military-industrial complex doesn’t create wealth, it just captures it.

It really depends
This argument is used against all public sector as if having roads, well educated and healthy people adds nothing of value to the economy.
It may be harder to see the value in a military complex [ i suspect they spend money so it is creates some wealth somewhere as the arms industry will testify to] but – and the right wing usually get this – being able to protect your assets against force may have some value to everyone.

Re the actual issue
Personally I would ignore the posturing on both sides as they are largely saying what they HOPE will occur afterwards – or possibly trying to make scare stories to put people off voting YES or perhaps giving an overly optimistic view to get them to vote YES. Until the hard haggling begins no one knows what will occur

Double post.

Did we not have this conversation before? It’s a textbook intangible asset. And of course asset has a usage outside of financial reporting. You can only make the “currency is not an asset” argument by using an artificially narrow definition.

Yes. It isn’t. Maybe, if you want to be sloppy with language. Not true, it can only be done by getting the definition deliberately wrong. But hey, the book of dreams is full of that.

Lost of people think that bank deposits are an asset. Look it’s money that we have and can use. Er, no they are liabilities pure and simple. Sloppy usage and constant misuse will not change basic facts.

you know what..

living in Scotland is pretty good.. Especially for mountain bikers with our land access laws..

Business wise it’s pretty good as well.. Reduced or zero business rates for SME.. Thats not a bad deal..

Health wise, we don’t pay for prescriptions and Education wise.. our kids don’t have to pay to get into a university..

Our way of thinking is pretty good I’d say… But it could be so much better.. Independence is the only way that it can get better though..

EU in 18 months after a yes vote? No problem.
The Pound ? either have a currency union with the UK pound or have our own Scottish pound which is tied at a 1-1 exchange rate with the UK pound.. Scottish businesses can take either currency and then bank it.. Foreign UK businesses can pay in UK pounds and this can be converted at the the bank.. It’s really not rocket science
Border controls.. won’t need them as we will be in the EU
Passports. I’m quite happy to have a Scottish one

The best thing about independence is getting rid of the Westminster boys club.. It’s a decrepit, failing system that needs to be overhauled… House of lords should be converted to an old folks home..

Business wise it’s pretty good as well.. Reduced or zero business rates for SME.. Thats not a bad deal..

Health wise, we don’t pay for prescriptions and Education wise.. our kids don’t have to pay to get into a university..

Zero rates – where does the LA get it’s funding?

Prescriptions – Tooth fairy provide them then? Or does the drugs company donate them to Scotland?

In what way is it not an intangible asset? 😕 I had a look, last time i asked you just didn’t answer…

Zero rates – where does the LA get it’s funding?

Prescriptions – Tooth fairy provide them then? Or does the drugs company donate them to Scotland?

LA gets its funding from the Scottish Parliament which gets its pocket money from the UK government which gets paid by the people of Scotland..

Same goes for prescriptions and university places…

Oh… we also just scrapped the bedroom tax.. 🙂

which gets paid by the people of Scotland.

So not free then?

Border controls.. won’t need them as we will be in the EU

Excpet that Spain will veto you due to the Catalunya question.

The Pound ? either have a currency union with the UK pound or have our own Scottish pound which is tied at a 1-1 exchange rate with the UK pound..

OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.

(1) it’s a liability
(2) it’s real not intangible

So it’s a double fail. Admittedly, the idea of it being an asset has a nice ring to it which is precious why liars politicians use the tactic all the time.

So not free then?

Oh good grief. No, not free, the way the NHS, defence, roads etc are not free. Free at the point of use, to those who need them.

So not free then?

lol.. really… is that the best you can come up with?

Excpet that Spain will veto you due to the Catalunya question.

Doubt it… They are making noises but thats just to keep face.. When it comes to D-Day.. I would put money on them ok’ing it… Even if it was to just stick the fingers up to the UK because of Gibraltar

Cameron would love it if Scotland voted yes – he just doesn’t want to be in charge when it happens.

OK, so humour me please. Explain how this parity is fixed and remains fixed between two economies moving relative to each other.

It’s called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..

http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate

Even if it was to just stick the fingers up to the UK because of Gibraltar

Christ on a bike! This just demonstrates that a lot of the Yes thing is the heart ruling the head. All emotional.

Why would the UK be upset if iScotland joined the EU?

What is more important to Spain? Pissing the UK off or keeping Catalunya?

Christ on a bike! This just demonstrates that a lot of the Yes thing is the heart ruling the head. All emotional.

Why would the UK be upset if iScotland joined the EU?

What is more important to Spain? Pissing the UK off or keeping Catalunya?

Pissing off the UK is quite high on their list of priorities these days..

What is more important to Spain?

The right to fish in scottish waters would be right up there I’d imagine. Despite their rumbling, Spain will not veto Scotland.

Plus the legal realities scotland and catalunya face are now different, Scotland negotiated a legally binding vote. The Catalans haven’t done that, so they are on to plumbs until they do really.

It may be but how would Scotland joining the EU piss the UK off?

It has been observed by various commentators how much the No campaign is like an abusive husband.

“Please don’t go, I love you. You’ll never cope on your own. Think of all the history we have together. If you go I’ll make your life hell. I love you. You need me. You think your new friends will love you as much as I do? You’re so emotional.”

But I guess that’s just back to the failure to make a positive case for the union. In an attempt to tell us we can’t afford independence, inevitably you have to run down the positive contribution Scotland makes.

But you can’t afford independence – that’s the whole point and there’s no use trying to claim otherwise or claiming anyone who uses this as an argument in anti Scotland. The ‘wish list’ just doesn’t stack up, simple as.

The only way for Scotland to become independent is to borrow money – huge vast sums of money the like of which will simply stagger you. You’ll need at least the following:

A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).

A full new currency system and all that entails.

To take on a portion of the UK debt, debt which you have helped to build so you should still pay for.

A full new welfare, tax, pensions, system.

A new or adapted health service.

A brace of embassies around the world.

To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.

A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.

There’s loads more but obviously I can’t go on listing or we’d be here all day.

Who do you think will pay for the above? Now can you see why Alex Salmond is so keen to say “Yes we want to be an independent country, but yes UK we’d like to use your x,y,z etc” because clearly independence is a dream, which when you look at the actual figures just doesn’t stack up.

A Scottish military, to fulfill your UN or NATO obligations (yes regardless of you views on this, it is required).

Had a look at how many military assets are based in Scotland? We’ll inherit a share of the UK’s military.

A new or adapted health service.

Like NHS Scotland, which is already independent of NHS England?

To pay your subsidy to the EU (if you join) which would not be subject to the same EU rebate the UK currently enjoys.

The Westminster government already doesn’t pass on the Scottish share of the rebate to Scotland.

A raft of new government, ministers, departments and agencies.

Many of which we’ve already got (independent legal system, health system, schools system etc), others will be far smaller and simpler than the UK’s. Ever seen the size of the New Zealand Department of Defence building?

But you can’t afford independence

We can’t afford to not be independent…

There will be costs.. everyone is aware of that but it’s not like Scotland has just turned up, pitched a tent and decided to form a new country from scratch..

Scotland will have a bigger national budget than it currently has.. That’s where the money is going to come from.

It may be but how would Scotland joining the EU piss the UK off?

you seem to miss the fact that scotland isn’t up and leaving the UK, all on it’s lonesome, it’s all negortitated with in the context of the UK, so if it does because independent, it’s still an EU member, if scotland needs to apply for reentry so will rUK, as they are also agreeing to a change in their national borders.

Why is it that England seems to own 100% of everything? 😀

We’ve got our 9% stake in the EU membership too.

It’s called Pegging.. happens all the time.. See this link for brief details..

http://www.currencysolutions.co.uk/euro/why-are-some-currencies-pegged-to-the-euro-exchange-rate
I know. I asked how you do it. It requires either the government or central bank to intervene in the market almost continuously to maintain the rate. So how will Scotland do that and with what resource?

We’ll inherit a share of the UK’s military.

That share has nothing to do with where the assets are currently based.

The Westminster government already doesn’t pass on the Scottish share of the rebate to Scotland.

Those nasty English picking on the Scots again. Pinching all your money to pay for the London Underground.

Ever seen the size of the New Zealand Department of Defence building?

Yours will need to be bigger than that to look after all the military personnel you seem to want now. I don’t believe NZ has any obligation to NATO or similar sized organisation?

rebel12 – Member

As soon as the first proxy government(aka scottish labour) is voted into the scottish parliament, post no vote, all that will disappear to become inline with England anyway.