taking control in our own hands

Hardly. You’ll still have parliametary democracy and politicans. Unless you think they’ll be somehow different simply because they are Scottish?

about building a fairer society
So you’re taking whatever’s offered and just hoping that it’s the right thing. Hmm ok

What’s being offered is the ability to pick our own government. Whether we get the right thing is then up to the people who live here.

Perhaps the UK should just have EU[ another foreign country] appointed ones then as it wont be any different?

They never said they would replace parliamentary democracy just that it would be one decided by the voters of scotland rather than the voter of [ primarily] England.

our own government

Hmmmm….

‘Us and Them’ again.

@Ben I suppose I am just repeating the same thing but you’ll be picking a government which has far less room for manouver. Also as I understand it you are living and working in the UK so you will still have “our” Government anyway.

Funny isn’t it

Spend half the time complaining all politicians are the same, then spend the other half saying how vital it is that you’re allowed to choose between them…

SNP is not a national party ok!

SNP – pro immigration, pro EU, left leaning, pro people who live in Scotland, where ever they are from.
UKIP – Anti immigration, anti eu, on the right, pro ‘British’ people (what ever they are?).

The question is, and one that I wish had been asked of Darling on the radio this morning, is why weren’t these powers announced ages ago if they’ve been in the planning for so long? And why doesn’t their sudden announcement a) break the rules of purdah and b) show that they are panicking and have been complacent and are only suggesting these powers now to prevent a yes vote?

probably, and I feel he is right, hence the disaster of the “no” campaign and their nit picking negative campaign rather than a positive one looking at what Scotland contributes to the Union and the Union to Scotland

Yup,and now it is too late they have changed tact so much that even they don’t know what the hell it is they are trying to say.The campaign of the naw’s has played right into the chippy Scots who remember the Fatcher years,who remember hating England. The project fear element has just reinforced old perceptions of being told what to do by the English Tory Government. Now for all that the many contributors on this thread put that down to being oversensitive…why didnt they (BT) work out that these folk could vote?
The latest reaction the the err…some…more powers…lastmin.com devo max offer should make THM’s wee heart glow…It would seem we are with your pal McCrone on how we view the promises/chances of Scotland getting extra layers of devolved power. Christ,they can’t even get a Scottish flag run up properly!

You also seem to be bearing a grudge based on the political systems and democracy of the early 18th century. I hope for your sake you can get over that.

He’s also still bitter about the clearances and seems to think they were carried out by the nasty English colonial masters. Just seems a bit confused in general really.

What’s being offered is the ability to pick our own government. Whether we get the right thing is then up to the people who live here.

You already get to pick your own government (and vote for a UK government). What you are angling for is to probably have less control over your own affairs (due to the CU issues) because of an emotion-based desire to feel ‘independent’.

this is complete unmitigated bollocks.

SNP is not a national party ok!
SNP loves Westnminster ok!

UKIP is not a nationalist party; it is a xenophobic one.

The SNP isn’t really a nationalist party either; it’s a funny sort of nationalist party that makes such a point to denounce xenophobia and racism, and spends so much time talking about how Scotland should be just like other European countries.

The SNP’s popularity is not driven by fear and hatred. it’s the party of government that has done not a terrible job of public administration with the powers it has – certainly in comparison with Labour (trams, Scottish parliament) and the Tories before them. the SNP has been around in significant numbers for decades and has a developed political platform and an established ideology and party line.

UKIP is simply a protest party built around one man that has actively sought to escape any executive responsibility once elected by simply not showing up.

none of what you said was correct ie unmitigated bollocks…

The latest reaction the the err…some…more powers…lastmin.com devo max offer should make THM’s wee heart glow

On the contrary, I think it is unedifying and unnecessary. They should lay the facts out bare, abandons the US style non-compete bllx and then let folk decide. At least we have the governor of the BOE talking straight sense yesterday.

Christ,they can’t even get a Scottish flag run up properly!

Boris-biked past MoTransport this morning with large saltire flapping in the breeze. Forget independence, this is reverse colonisation and without a gun being fired! Pathetic – and these are the muppets that we want running things.

Ben, you should be precise about nukes. It’s not paying for them rather than not having them hidden away in Scottish waters. It’s important.

The main similarity between UKIP and SNP is (1) mainstream parties don’t know how to engage with/against people who spout BS and won’t debate facts and (2) populism will swallow anything. Good job they don’t promise a cheque in the post too.

Oh, and getting rid of the WMDs – that’s pretty important too.

Is that a good idea as Putin gets particularly belligerent and China starts to throw its weight around a little more as it gets richer?

@ Molgrips its not to do with them being Scottish it is to with the people of Scotland being able to elect those who govern Scotland which they dont at the moment. Further to that there is an energised and politicised mass movement in Scotland now which I believe will diminish but not disappear after the referendum.
I have also said before that we need more participatory politics and much more accessible local politics.

I’ve just had a chat with a Scotsman I work with who convinced me that voting yes is a good move. His arguement went like this

Westminster Politicians – Incompetent fools
EU Politicians – Incompetent fools
Scottish Politicains – Incompetent Fools

But we have the chance to get rid of two sets of fools in one go and be left with our fools who we should be able to manage more effectively.

‘Us and Them’ again.

Yes, Us as in the people who live in Scotland – yet again, it’s civic nationalism not ethnic nationalism.

Spend half the time complaining all politicians are the same, then spend the other half saying how vital it is that you’re allowed to choose between them…

All Westminster politicians are the same, because the Westminster system produces that. A more proportional, fairer electoral system would produce politicians who are very different – as they are in Scotland.

Ben, you should be precise about nukes. It’s not paying for them rather than not having them hidden away in Scottish waters. It’s important.

To be precise, not having them is a moral issue. It’s an over-riding moral issue for me. Not having to pay for them is a bonus, but even if getting rid of them didn’t save us a penny, even if we had to spend £100bn over 30 years on some other white elephant, it’d still be worth it to get rid of them.

Possessing WMDs is just wrong. Full stop.

Is that a good idea as Putin gets particularly belligerent and China starts to throw its weight around a little more as it gets richer?

WMDs don’t keep us safe from Russia and China, they just make us a target.

Molgrips its not to do with them being Scottish it is to with the people of Scotland

Lol!

As it stands, you are a UK citizen, and you get to elect a UK government just like everyone else.

@ Molgrips its not to do with them being Scottish it is to with the people of Scotland being able to elect those who govern Scotland which they dont at the moment.

What does the Scottish Parliament do then? And I thought people in Scotland could vote for the government in the UK elections too.

You currently have more democratic power than anyone else in the UK.

A more proportional, fairer electoral system would produce politicians who are very different – as they are in Scotland.

Like Alex Salmond? Hmm….

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-foreign-investors-desert-british-economy-amid-fears-of-yes-vote-9720967.html

Top photo of this article. Can anyone spot a truly brilliant sign in the crowd?

Like Alex Salmond? Hmm….

Yes. Like him or not, he’s run rings around every Westminster politician from the start. However a SNP majority in the Scottish parliament is an aberration – we’re most likely to have coalitions with MSPs from lots of different parties.

WMDs don’t keep us safe from Russia and China, they just make us a target.

How do you work that out? the whole point of Trident is that it’s invisible.

Also, can someone enlighten me what the ‘Fairer Society’ is all about? What does that actually mean?

Meanwhile:

So is this (and it’s just down the road from a synagogue) worse than an egg?

How do you work that out? the whole point of Trident is that it’s invisible.

Erm, Faslane? Coulport? The submarines may be invisible (you hope, if the Russians don’t detect the one at-sea sub we’ve got), but the on-shore facilities that support the sub are very visible and an obvious target.

The one at-sea sub doesn’t have enough nukes to deal an overwhelming counterstrike or counterforce blow, all it can do is make the Russians or Chinese very, very angry.

Also, can someone enlighten me what the ‘Fairer Society’ is all about? What does that actually mean?

It’s a society where this kind of thing cannot happen:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/david-clapson-benefit-sanctions-death-government-policies

It’s a society where this kind of thing cannot happen:

Not answering the question, really.

Erm, Faslane? Coulport? The submarines may be invisible (you hope, if the Russians don’t detect the one at-sea sub we’ve got), but the on-shore facilities that support the sub are very visible and an obvious target.

The one at-sea sub doesn’t have enough nukes to deal an overwhelming counterstrike or counterforce blow, all it can do is make the Russians or Chinese very, very angry.

Ben – You really don’t get it. Again.

You don’t understand the power of even one Trident sub.
You don’t understand how a strategic deterrent works.
You don’t understand that if required all 4 subs could be at sea on patrol very quickly.
You don’t understand how the UK and US attack subs are way ahead of the Russians.

One sub could easily destroy Moscow, St Petersberg and another dozen principal cities. What would be left?

The UK disarmed in the 1930’s. Never again.

but the on-shore facilities that support the sub are very visible and an obvious target.

But the SNP plan was to continue the on shore facilities that support the submarines

The main similarity between UKIP and SNP is (1) mainstream parties don’t know how to engage with/against people who spout BS and won’t debate facts

the SNP is a mainstream party! you can’t get more mainstream than having a majority. their views are unremarkable centre left European social democratic viewszzzzz.

it’s equally facile to paint the SNP as populist. if they had been promising a free tartan elephant for every voter, they’d have been slung out years ago when they failed to perform as councillors, lords provost, MPs, MSPs, ministers and latterly as Scottish First Minister. they have a record of administration that is no better or worse than Labour, the Tories or the Lib Dems.

Well yes I am a UK citizen,and my country Scotland has voted Labour at every Westminster election since 1955.Still got Tory govts in 59,70,79,83,87,and 92 though and the Condems last time around. I think it is true to say that none of the Tories in govt are responsible to the people of Scotland except for Mundell.
It is absolutely true that Scottish mps should not have a say on rUk matters that dont directly affect Scotland.
Edit With Westminster still controlling the vast majority of taxation in Scotland and still controlling economic policy Scotland is still governed by Westminster

The UK disarmed in the 1930’s. Never again.

no, it didn’t. that global empire wasn’t maintained by force of personality (and, in any case, the level of British armament was of no real significance to the rise of fascism and Stalinism, and the beginning of WW2

Gordimhor

How or why is that any different from a Tory voter living in the Borders, or a Lib Dem living in the Islands, getting an SNP or Labour government settled by the central belt?

Just to lighten the debate a little –

Cameron, Clegg, Miliband, Travel To Scotland To Personally Remind Voters What They’ll Be Free From

(Slightly sweary, but just about safe for work)

Ben – You really don’t get it. Again.

Oh, I really do get it. The only purpose of Trident is to kill millions of innocent civilians after their leaders have killed millions of ours.

Morally that is indefensible – you can try to dress it up however you like, but they are weapons of mass destruction designed to kill men, women and children. There is no possible moral justification for possessing them.

How or why is that any different from a Tory voter living in the Borders, or a Lib Dem living in the Islands, getting an SNP or Labour government settled by the central belt?

Look how many Scottish Tories there are at Westminster. Now look at how many there are at Holyrood. Holyrood is more representative of the views of the people of Scotland.

no, it didn’t. that global empire wasn’t maintained by force of personality (and, in any case, the level of British armament was of no real significance to the rise of fascism and Stalinism, and the beginning of WW2

Utter bollocks.

Ninfan There will always be towns or cities or regions that voted against a particular government.I dont think there has ever been a democratically elected govt that got 100% of the vote but I believe that a general election is an exercise in national democracy. You either believe that Scotland is a country,and its people a nation or you dont.

I thought people in Scotland could vote for the government in the UK elections too.

They can but the votes in England decide what govt they got and [ almost always] what govt everyone gets hence the debate

You currently have more democratic power than anyone else in the UK.

Why do they need devolved power if they are so brilliantly represented in the UK?
They get “more” power as they have so little.

You either believe that Scotland is a country,and its people a nation or you dont.

Luckily that question has already been answered for you

That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint and the Crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit and used in all Flags Banners Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land

They even gave you a currency union to go with it!

Ben – You really don’t get it. Again.

Oh, I really do get it. The only purpose of Trident is to kill millions of innocent civilians after their leaders have killed millions of ours.

Morally that is indefensible – you can try to dress it up however you like, but they are weapons of mass destruction designed to kill men, women and children. There is no possible moral justification for possessing them.

Erm, no Ben….you really don’t get it.

Anyway Ben, I keep hearing this term ‘fairer society’. Can you explain what that means, as I’m just not getting it?

You don’t understand the power of even one Trident sub.
You don’t understand how a strategic deterrent works.
You don’t understand that if required all 4 subs could be at sea on patrol very quickly.
You don’t understand how the UK and US attack subs are way ahead of the Russians.

You don’t understand that bases can quickly become targets, not deterrents. Still, if you find yourself faced with relocating these weapons to say, Portsmouth, you might find out.