teamhurtmore – Member

NW nothing fibbing about the election results at all.

JY showed you the numbers and you’ve made no attempt to rebut. They simply don’t say what you claimed. I could accept that as a mistake at the time but to maintain it now is clearly dishonest.

seosamh77 – Member
…I won’t need to use the NHS much in the next 30 years, touch wood. So facts as they current are are fairly irrelevant to me…

If you have parents they may be.

Check out the costs of aged care and also the costs of dying of something like cancer in a privatised system.

Or a child needing a heart operation.

If you have parents they may be.

Check out the costs of aged care and also the costs of dying of something like cancer in a privatised system.I have and they are currently being treated very well.

NW – I just ignore trolls*. There are plenty of articles showing what I said from across the political spectrum. The democracy deficit is another myth.

* TBF, didn’t even bother to read, so not sure what was said to rebut anyway and have no interest.

The ironical thing is that in one case where Scotland voted labour and got Tory was dear Maggie and now they are copying RW policies that would make even her blush. Still that was a good example of how being exposed to NS Oil can be a double edged sword. But at least there was a simple hate figure to blame instead. Nothing new there.

Oh good, we’re back to the BBC scare story – apparently we’ll have to pay for BBC shows that we currently get for free 🙄

Yet again deliberately confusing matters. The currency is not an asset to be shared, never has been ,

William Hill called it spot on straight to economics and no mention of the fact the quotes counters his claim that AS said that iS would walk away form debt. I would say woosh but i dont believe for a second you did miss it as usual you just ignore the facts that dont fit with your increasingly angry and personal AS attacks/rants. Still thanks god you dont deceive eh

Thanks for the troll claim for using actual facts against your unevidenced claims 🙄 Really when all you have left is pathetic name calling when presented with facts- really why not counter the actual election results and prove your claim to be true. Have you noticed how many posters on the last few pages have mentioned your MO , your posts and content? – how many have criticised mine?You are getting a lot of trolling here – well either that or you are telling porkies in your posts. Its not hard to work out which it is.

NW nothing fibbing about the election results at all. The democratic deficit is another misrepresentation used by yS.

As NW notes as I showed with the ACTUAL figures that is just not true and it is incorrect

Will someone just ask him for the data [ third time he has made the claim with no evidence at all to support it – the thing he accuses AS of doing] then re post what I showed. We all know its is a BS claim

There are plenty of articles showing what I said from across the political spectrum. The democracy deficit is another myth

you keep saying this and as yet you have produced not one shred of evidence to support it – My guess he advises us to “read up on it” in a really patronising manner – someone ask him to see if he really does read my posts or not 😉
Really THM you are wrong your claim is false, the figures are available and I posted a link to them
Stop digging, its not true, anyone who reads and looks at the figures knows it is a BS claim.

teamhurtmore – Member

* TBF, didn’t even bother to read, so not sure what was said to rebut anyway and have no interest.

I think I’ll use that policy- anyone that provides hard facts that contradict my bullshit, I’ll just declare a troll and not bother to read it and therefore I will be right. FFS.

Noam Chomsky backing Scottish independence:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-noam-chomsky-backing-yes-1-3387174

The i/Independent this morning publishes a poll conducted in England by a Welsh academic, purporting to shoe that only 19% of English people want Scotland to leave the Union amongst other points.
The important point though, is the majority view that should Independence happen, then Currency Union is strongly opposed by the people in this survey (haven’t got my copy to hand, will show actual figures later).
For me personally, these figures are encouraging as i suspect it will help to drive up the yS vote. As i believe Independence is going to happen at some point anyway its best that it happens sooner rather than later.
I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU, when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?
Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its ‘bullying’ ?

Oh good, we’re back to the BBC scare story

I would have thought not getting Eastenders was a real bonus……being able to pick and choose will mean not funding a lot of the dross hence why the Beeb grandee’s are so unhappy at the likely budget cut. You will be able to put the money into “Clydesiders” or similar

The “scare story” is that a Yes vote will mean the end of the licence fee in it’s current form in rUK and a different model will need to be created to enable access for rUK and non-rUK residents. Some may argue that it’s going to happen anyway but a Yes vote makes it a near certainty

you may get a World Service broadcast though 😉

muddydwarf – Member

I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU, when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?

The 3 questions there are why, how informed it is, and how strongly. Or to put it another way, what was the english electorate’s opinion on currency union, before westminster and the media started telling everyone it was a bad idea. And, you have a strong majority, but how much do they actually care? My nonscientific survey of a dozen or so english people who’re against currency union revealed none of them really knew what it was, no idea how representative that may be of course.

And its almost universally accepted that the NHS will be privatised in England in the not too distant future.

Quite simply not true. It isn’t going to be privatised and its not universally accepted. The NHS does many things very well but it does many things very poorly and very inefficiently. The French service isn’t free at the point of use, do we say that is a privatised service ?

With regards to the NHS an independent Scotland will lose many of the benefits of scale the UK NHS enjoys, the service will be more costly to provide with a higher bureaucratic overhead.

@Nothwind, I would say most of us in the UK thought currency Union was a bad idea as soon as we heard about it, nothing to do with Westminster. If Scotland votes for independence I hope all the UK parties re-assert their position on currency union and other Scottish issues so we can make sure we vote for the party at the UK general election which stands for the values we believe in. If necessary I would be very happy to have a referendum on the issues.

The 3 questions there are why,

you cede sovreignty in a currency union, decisions on monetary policy are directly influenced by a separate state, in rUK world the impact on Mertyr Tydfil of any decision is more important to me than anywhere in Scotland

how informed it is,

read the papers/ listen to interviews etc oh and read this thread 😉

and how strongly

very, Scottish independence is going to cost the rUK a lot, I’m stuffed if I’m paying/ giving up sovreignty to prop up the Scottish financial sector, it’s bad enough doing that for the City of London

The currency costs argument for rUK is minor: I went to the North Devon Agricultural Show on holiday this year and you could get get in paying in Euro’s, in pre Euro europe Dutch/ German currency was interchangeable at the border. If a small county show can get it’s head around it I’m sure the big boys can

bencooper – Member
Oh good, we’re back to the NHS scare story – apparently we’ll have to pay for NHS treatment that we currently get for free

Or would you call that ‘project fear’? 😉

Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its ‘bullying’ ?

I think it’s the total refusal to even negotiate on the matter that’s poorly received. Even the most adamant voices on here point out that iScotland would never sign up to the term that would need to put down for it to be acceptable to rUK, but we’ll never find out. The stance of not discussing what will happen after a vote, but only when it suits us is in bad faith and lot of people don’t like it.

I would say most of us in the UK thought currency Union was a bad idea as soon as we heard about it, nothing to do with Westminster.

Anecdotally, most folk I know living in England want as few barriers as possible so were quite happy at the idea of the CU. I’ve not asked them about it again recently but it certainly wasn’t as clear cut as you’d seem to think.

Or to put it another way, what was the english electorate’s opinion on currency union, before westminster and the media started telling everyone it was a bad idea.

This would be interesting to know.

jambalaya – there is no UK NHS

I think it’s the total refusal to even negotiate on the matter that’s poorly received. Even the most adamant voices on here point out that iScotland would never sign up to the term that would need to put down for it to be acceptable to rUK, but we’ll never find out. The stance of not discussing what will happen after a vote, but only when it suits us is in bad faith and lot of people don’t like it.

as soon as Mark Carney stated that currency union requires the ceding of sovreignty it was a dead duck.

The whole premise of the independence vote is that Scotland has a different political direction than rUK and different spending and taxation priorities. The whole essence of the Yes campaign is the desire to create a divergent economy to that in rUK

you can’t have that and a successful currency Union, and rUK isn’t going to risk the stability of the pound for the convenience of not having to have a few Euro’s/tartan pounds in your pocket

A hardening of English attitudes

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/20/scottish-independence-referendum-english-attitudes

big_n_daft – Member

you cede sovreignty in a currency union, decisions on monetary policy are directly influenced by a separate state,

You should take that one up with the No campaign tbh, they insist Scotland would be giving up all influence on monetary policy…

muddydwarf – Member

I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU, when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?
Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its ‘bullying’ ?IMO, because it’s largely top down policy. Ie it’s tabloidism, so can easily be changed or spun in a different direction post referedum..

jambalaya – Member
And its almost universally accepted that the NHS will be privatised in England in the not too distant future.

Quite simply not true. It isn’t going to be privatised and its not universally accepted. The NHS does many things very well but it does many things very poorly and very inefficiently. The French service isn’t free at the point of use, do we say that is a privatised service ?
With regards to the NHS an independent Scotland will lose many of the benefits of scale the UK NHS enjoys, the service will be more costly to provide with a higher bureaucratic overhead.

The truth of it wasn’t really my point, I’m not particularly qualified to comment.

The point was about the perception.

that’s the problem with this particular debate, it’s overly concerned with facts and has very little concern with the emotion.

A hardening of English attitudes

I’m not really surprised. Most of the time, for most English people, Scotland is an irrelevance – we’re this wee country up North which makes whisky and fried Mars bars.

But now the English media is filled with stories about Scotland, and lots of it is about how Scotland is richer than the rest of the UK, has more spending per head, and wants to leave the UK but wants to keep the Queen, the BBC and the Pound.

Or to put it another way, what was the english electorate’s opinion on currency union, before westminster and the media started telling everyone it was a bad idea.

**** ’em , it’s our ball and we are taking it home.

If you don’t want to be friends anymore get your own ball.

it’s our ball

It’s a shared ball that we helped pump up.

(That popping sound was a metaphor stretching to breaking point…)

If Scotland leaves the UK and joins Europe why would you not want to have the euro.

I’m not really surprised. Most of the time, for most English people, Scotland is an irrelevance

for most people anywhere outside their normal “world” which may be as small as a village in the middle of nowhere or as large as a city is an irrelevance

– we’re this wee country up North which makes whisky and fried Mars bars.

you should see what people say about Liverpool, and visa-versa,

But now the English media is filled with stories about Scotland, and lots of it is about how Scotland is richer than the rest of the UK, has more spending per head, and wants to leave the UK but wants to keep the Queen, the BBC and the Pound.

a lot of English media is the Yes campaign implicitly/ explicitly telling rUk (mainly the English) that we have been awful to the Scots and that it’s all our fault, that we are now bullying poor Scotland and continuing the Westminister “yoke” that has stopped Scotland being a Utopia

can’t think why attitudes are hardening

I think I’ll use that policy- anyone that provides hard facts that contradict my bullshit, I’ll just declare a troll and not bother to read it and therefore I will be right. FFS.

Careful NW you may get added to the list 😉

I am puzzled though as to why the majority of yS supporters think politicians are lying about CU,

Are you really askign why the electorate dont believe politicians? IMHO it is because they have along and illustrious history of lying their arses off. Its like the boy who cries wolf tbh. In this case Uk refused to discuss – knowing uncertainity could be used against ys even though it was the fault/decision of no. IMHO they have broken this vow by stating their position prior to the negotiations. It allready at doublespeak IMHO.

when this poll shows that the largest electorate in the UK is strongly opposed to that course of action?

Again like NW my survey of asking friends was – eh , what , yes , it will be bad fur , erm dont know. I think this debate shows that very few of us [ this poster included] really understand economic issues – I woudl also declare i consider it a dismal science with the predictive power of astrology hence i have little interest in learning.

Why is it acceptable for Scots to want to protect their interests, but if the rest of us wish to do the same its ‘bullying’ ?

I think the argument here is it harms both countries. The issue against is that rUK bears the burden of risk not iS. However I would also point out that the US bailed out the Uk, the UK bailed out Ireland. Ie if one of your major trading partners goes belly up it is still in your best interest to bail them out whether in a formal union or no union at all.

The stance of not discussing what will happen after a vote, but only when it suits us is in bad faith and lot of people don’t like it

That is true

1) is anyone considering moving savings to English banks? Been considering this and noticed the scotsman covered it the other day http://www.scotsman.com/news/how-likely-would-run-on-banks-be-after-yes-vote-1-3511906

2) is now a stupid time to consider buying a house in Scotland?

Still interested in anything fact based about the above if anyone works in these kind of areas

Still interested in anything fact based about the above

Good luck with that – on here we tend to deal more in wild speculation 😉

You should take that one up with the No campaign tbh, they insist Scotland would be giving up all influence on monetary policy…

Insist? That is just what happens. The reason why there may not be much angst about CU is that many people including the DO do not know (or in the latter’s case pretend not to know) how they work.

But yet again, here is the elephant in the room. The DO ultimately wants a CU with £ as a precursor to joining the €. He does not feel comfortable with having an independent currency with independence policy, supervision, etc. How odd, and here I was thinking that this was call for independence. Central to each of the yS recommendations is the need to CEDE SOVEREIGNTY. When this gets pointed out, people get accused in bullying or bluffing. But that is a smokescreen.

The heart of the yS campaign is the desire to cede not take on sovereignty. There can be no escaping that fact. This is not a vote for independence since the main proponents clearly do not think it’s in Scotland’s interests. In that regard, they are correct. There own analysis shows why two countries we such integrated economies, free labour movement etc are best suited as a union. It’s all there in the fiscal commission. The rest is pure vanity and ego.

me
There’s no such thing as EU citizenship, properly understood. there’s only citizenship of a state that is a member of the EU.

junkyard

There’s no such thing as EU citizenship

Well that is just plain wrong
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/
Any person who holds the nationality of an EU country is automatically also an EU citizen. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship. It is for each EU country to lay down the conditions for the acquisition and loss of nationality of that country.
If you actually read what I read and don’t just cut & paste the bits that suit you, and then you actually read what you linked to (and the underlying document, which I note is missing from the page you cite), you’ll see that there really isn’t any real thing as EU citizenship. Citizenship of a non-state and which is contingent on your relationship with a state and that state’s relationship with another entity is just a nonsense. You might as well say you have citizenship of the local rubbish dump because ratepayers have a right to dump rubbish there – it makes just as much sense.

I can only read what you read if you provide it, can you cite the document ?
I was not trying to misrepresent your position and I dont think I have

The idea that the US bailed out the UK is just another example of people not understanding how any of this works. * During the crisis the FED acted as the lender of last resort. It did not bail out the banks. It provided emergency funding at penal interests to those who needed it. They are completely different things, naturally confused together by YS to deceive the public in their ridiculous poster posted here a week or so ago.

But it is an issue that is worth bringing up. Why? Because the DO is now proposing the best option is for Scotland with its large banking sector to have no lender of last resort. That is folly in the extreme and another clear example of how badly thought through yS campaign is. Shameful as well as deceitful.

* currently reading Tim Geithner’s book about how this was actually managed. YS supporters should try it despite the uncomfortable narrative! Like Carney, Geithner has no need to BS the public.

The whole premise of the independence vote is that Scotland has a different political direction than rUK and different spending and taxation priorities.

I agree with that statement in part Big n Daft, imo opinion Scotland does consistently support different tax and spending policies from other parts of the UK,but the real premise of the independence debate is this.” Scotland would be better governed by people who live and work in Scotland.” Note that this is irrespective of where a person was born, and of the political make up any future Scottish government.

During the crisis the FED acted as the lender of last resort. It did not bail out the banks. It provided emergency funding at penal interests to those who needed it. They are completely different things,

😆 I am sure that will convince the doubters Comedy gold this thread.
It either gave money or it did not give money and if it gave money it bailed them out. PS is this an example of a foreign central bank being the lender of last resort …surely NOT?

Anyway you missed the point THM , I thought I would just do a wee test [ using economics as you struggle to resist] to see if you did read my posts and now we all know you do.
THANKS

Shot yourself in the foot again there THM and we all know that NW assessment of your MO is indeed the truth and your account is not.

teamhurtmore – Member

Insist? That is just what happens.

Argue with Big N Daft (and the English electorate, and Mark Carney apaprently), not me… Welcome to Team Yes.

During the crisis the FED acted as the lender of last resort.

Because the DO is now proposing the best option is for Scotland with its large banking sector to have no lender of last resort.

😀

Dr Brooke Magnanti: I Want To Live In A Country Based On Hope For The Future

The dutch prepare for independence! 😆