Well said Athgray I understand now the UK governments of various colours over the last 60 years have made an excellent job of helping the most vulnerable people in society. I should of course realise that we are all in this together and accept the growing gap between rich and poor as it’s for the best really. Westminster knows what’s best for everyone. ……

Aye right 😉

EDIT: I suppose you (and the EU) could be saying that Scotland won’t be forced to use the euro as they wouldn’t be joining the EU

I was.

I am just waiting for the accusations of bullying by the EU from the Nats.

I must admit I’m surprised Salmond went for a currency union when there are the other options, such as a Scottish pound – which isn’t exactly a new concept here.

I think he went into this hoping for exactly the reaction he has got, because it seems to have upset quite a few of the fence sitters who are now on the Yes side. This would certainly fit with his reputation for being canny (sort of like duplicitous, but in a beneficial way).

If Osbourne thought it would scare folk, it seems to have misfired, and now Salmond will have popular support for whatever currency he proposes.

I thought that was the main argument for independence anyway, so the yes camp hasn’t lost a lot.

Well it’s working just fine for Sweden doing that – there is no requirement to join the Euro immediately on joining the EU, simply when you meet the correct economic conditions (to do otherwise would be even more economically nonsensical than Germany and Greece sharing a currency). IIRC Sweden are adopting the tactic that one of the conditions is being a member of the ERM and that there is no requirement for them to join the ERM 🙂 . All a bit of a non issue in a way though, as I think Barroso is right – if we assume that Scotland have to rejoin (and if they don’t then the Euro issue doesn’t arise – well at least not so long as they retain sterling as currency 😆 ), then they’re going to find it extremely difficult so long as Spain have the power of veto. If AS wants to convince people different on the latter point he’s going to need Spain to make a statement on the issue, and I suspect AS will join the Conservative party first.

The idea that come the first day after a YES vote Scotland would be kicked out of the EU is ridiculous and as far as I can tell has no legal standing.

Any membership agreement would be negotiated from within the EU the same way as the agreement with the UK will be conducted whilst still a member.

do you really think Scotland could join the EU and then bluff the financial tests to avoid joining the euro for ever ?

They probably could if they wanted in a similar way to Sweden.

As for a Spanish Veto I can’t imagine they would want to lose access to Scottish fishing waters for a start.

I think you’d find the EU member states would require Scotland to join the euro immediately as a condition of membership and pay a healthy annual contribution into the EU.

To be fair to the Cybernats, I don’t accept this is true – there is certainly room for the EU to allow a temporary derogation giving a significant period of transition, however Scotland would still have to commit to joining the Euro in the future,

Stating publicly in advance that you are planning to deliberately avoid fulfilling the criteria to stay out of the Euro is hardly the best negotiation tactic to take into the room when you’re trying to get the agreement of all the other EU nations to grant you membership… At the same time, pledging that your intention to join the EU and therefore Euro means that any step you take with your currency in the short term is clearly an interim measure, was hardly condusive to encouraging the rUK to join into any meaningful fiscal union, therefore that has now been ruled out… So Salmond has firmly painted Scotland into a corner!

The idea that come the first day after a YES vote Scotland would be kicked out of the EU is ridiculous and as far as I can tell has no legal standing.

You’re not being kicked out – you’re leaving, don’t you get it?

Just repeating that you think its ridiculous and has no legal standing isn’t going to win you the argument when the president of the EU has clearly stated that that’s exactly what it involves!

(ps. Sweden is a pointless example regards the Euro, because, unlike Scotland, they’re not applying for membership, they’re already part of the club!)

Scotland isn’t a member of the EU, the UK is. Which bit of independence don’t you understand?

The idea that come the first day after a YES vote Scotland would be kicked out of the EU is ridiculous and as far as I can tell has no legal standing.

Your not getting kicked out, you are leaving the UK and therefore the EU. You will be a new nation state, which then will have to apply to join the EU. This has been confirmed by several sources.

Do you think he’s got the message yet?

Not totally meaningless, as they joined the EU in 1995, at which point newly joining countries were required to commit to take up the Euro, so not really so different to the situation Scotland would have. As you point out though the difficulty is that it’s kind of hard to have a stated position of not intending to join the Euro when applying to join.

I understand perfectly thank you. The message in the media is that Scotland would have to negotiate from out with the EU as if we had been kicked out. Scotland would be a member until the date of independence in which time a membership timetable/agreement would be made.

This has been confirmed by several sources

Show me the legal advice form the EU that confirms that? It’s not been given because it’s not been asked for.

Nothing the EU president has said directly addresses the position or is official. legal advice, its personal opinion. He also wont be in the position when we get the point of the negotiations.

Using Scottish membership or non membership as a stick to beat us with is also hypocritical given the in/out referendum that is happening in a couple of years.

Here’s the thing:

AS would have us all believe that everything is going to go smoothly, there’ll be no hiccups & Scotland will be fine..

The reality of the situation is that AS is promising that which he CANNOT deliver on his own. He cannot just wave a magic wand & all will be fine & dandy.

We have had numerous & repeated rebuttals of AS’s promises by prominent members of both HMG, EU & the BOE et al, who, & lets be honest, are the ones who really hold Scotland’s future in their hands that this transition to independence isn’t a foregone conclusion & that AS cannot promise that which he has no power to deliver.

If Scotland truly wants independence I think the best thing they can do is ditch AS!

Show me the legal advice form the EU that confirms that?

Do we really want to drag up the subject of legal advice?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10367759/Alex-Salmond-spent-20000-keeping-secret-non-existent-EU-legal-advice.html

However, since you ask, here’s that constitutional law expert from the LSE again:

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/39558/1/blogs.lse.ac.uk-An_independent_Scotland_would_need_to_apply_for_EU_membership_and_would_be_compelled_to_adopt_the_eur.pdf

Show me the legal advice form the EU that confirms that? It’s not been given because it’s not been asked for.

In that case its evidential use in any argument is neutral then – relying on the absence of advice that doesn’t exist as proof that Barosso is wrong is just silly!

Sheesh, will be interesting to see some new polls. Which I’m guessing will be soon. Wonder how many favours Westminster has been pulling in lately.

Jose in the Scotsman http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scotland-admission-into-eu-may-be-impossible-1-3308359

Show me the legal advice form the EU that confirms that? It’s not been given because it’s not been asked for.

The EU in it’s current form came about with the signing of the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. This treaty makes no mention of the state of “Scotland”. This treaty would have be changed to allow the entry of Scotland.

If you look back earlier in the thread there is a link to a video of a LSE Professor, who specialises in EU Law speaking to a government committee and he is quite clear about it.

gordimhor. You will not see me claiming Westminster is perfect. Far from it in fact. The fact that a significant number of people are about to vote to leave it, is evidence enough that politically work needs done to improve it.
I hold little regard for the views of those in England also with a “don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out” attitude. I reckon it shows little regard for the UK as a whole. If they value the UK as an entity it is a bit like Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns. I don’t wish to see any part break away from the UK, or an independent Scotland should the situation ever arise.

The widening gap between the rich and poor in the UK is regrettable, however many no voters care enough about the UK to think this is solvable short of turning a back on the issue.

The problem the no campaign have is convincing Scottish voters that an imperfect system where money is sometimes mis-spent, and bad decisions are made, is a better option than utopia. This can seem like an uphill task.

Scotland is going to be the first non-EU country whose citizens are EU citizens. Or is my EU citizenship going to be stripped from me when they prize my UK passport out of my hands?

The point there is that it is a UK passport – NOT a Scottish passport..

Article 20: Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship

Stop being a member state, stop being a citizen – easy enough!

Here’s another thing though Mr Lebowski the UK government are the only ones who can ask for the definitive EU position and yet they haven’t done so nor do they intend to do so. Funny that they can give clarity to the important market, yet not to the people of Scotland who are still at this point UK subjects.
I didn’t hear Mr Carney say in his speech that a currency union was not possible.
Finally we’ll just have to wait and see how Mr Osbornes intervention affects the referendum but there’s some evidence that currency is not a major issue to many voters. For what it’s worth I will be voting yes irrespective of what currency we end up with.

ben, that is a question you have to put Manuel Barosso. I imagine hard hits of reality pointed out by presidents of the European Commission are more difficult to swallow than the so called bullying of an unpopular tory chancellor.

That’s fine – the currency issue, whether we join a Formal Union with an Independent Scotland appears to be quite the issue down here from what i’m hearing. I haven’t met anyone whe disagrees with the position set out by the Party Leaders on this. What you do in Scotland after that statement is immaterial to the rest of us, we just don’t want Formal Currency Union status.

we just don’t want Formal Currency Union status.

A fair amount of people do though from what I can tell.

ben, that is a question you have to put Manuel Barosso. I imagine hard hits of reality pointed out by presidents of the European Commission are more difficult to swallow than the so called bullying of an unpopular tory chancellor.

Actually, yes, do that, and you can ask him a non leading question about the actual situation not one that appears to miss the point 😉

Again athgray I agree with a lot of what you say. Independence is just a step along the road to achieve a fairer country or better maybe to say independence is a tool and it’s up to all of us to make the best use of it. Just raising the issue has perhaps caused people throughout the UK to look at Westminster again ( people of all political views and of none).However when you see things like the herald story “Yes does not mean Yes” you realise just how big a task it is to break up the Westminster circle. In my opinion the headline is a bit sensationalist but the story is still worrying.

Are those “fair amount of people” in the UK (as it will be) or Scotland though?
It’s the UK’s position that is vital, Scotland can huff and puff about the UK’s position being unfair and bullying but that’s the UK’s position – that selff determination thing is a bitch isn’t it?

Are those “fair amount of people” in the UK (as it will be) or Scotland though?

In the Uk. Scots who now live in England, those with family in Scotland and business owners who do business/trade with Scotland mostly.

A minority then. I haven’t met anyone who is for such a Union and this is one of those incredibly rare times when people right across the political spectrum are united in opposition to the idea.

this is really funny scotland want to keep the pound the rest of the UK are SELF DETRMINING that we dont want you too …….deal with it

How about if Scotland self-determines that England doesn’t get to keep the pound? The Bank of England was set up by a Scotsman after all 😉

Hasn’t the great Salmond just tried that approach and had his bum slapped?

The problem the no campaign have is convincing Scottish voters that an imperfect system where money is sometimes mis-spent, and bad decisions are made, is a better option than utopia. This can seem like an uphill task.

Exactly this + 1. Far easier and seems much more exciting for the YES campaign to promise a shiny new Scotland, than for the NO’s to say stick with it as it’ll be better for all of us. Except the problem is that the YES campaigns promise of Utopia is now thoroughly starting to unravel. Ah well, let’s just accuse anyone who dares to point out the facts as being great big bullies.

Alex Salmond recently chortled that point repeatedly during an interview on R4 ben. James Naughty shot him down though. “Yes Mr Salmond, you keep bandying that about like it actually has any relevance.”
Dear leader was a bit more coy after that. “I was just saying like.”

The Bank of England was set up by a Scotsman after all 😉

And, ahem, what did he go on to do after that? 😉

Ah well, let’s just accuse anyone who dares to point out the facts as being great big bullies.

Except they’re not really facts, they’re political negotiating positions. There aren’t really any facts in any of this.

Scotland would not have any say in how the currency of the continuing UK is used. Tax policy, interest rates, borrowing. All that, no control, no influence, nothing.

And not because of some kind of bullying conspiracy, but because the alternatives are even worse.

Ninfan He quit the board set up the Darien scheme and then went into hiding until he became an actor and starred in Comfort and Joy in 1984 😆

Ah well, let’s just accuse anyone who dares to point out the facts as being great big bullies.
Except they’re not really facts, they’re political negotiating positions. There aren’t really any facts in any of this.

This seems to have already discussed at length and I think the general consensus is that these are facts, as opposed to what’s contained in the White Paper which would be a work of pure fiction that even the Brothers Grimm would have been proud of!

gordimhor, I have not read the “Yes does not mean yes article”. Do we know who the source is? I can not see that being the case, and neither should it be. Alastair Darling who I reckon often appears timid and hapless was fairly bullish in interview today and said categorically that a Yes vote WILL mean independence.

A couple of unnamed sources – plus Baroness Jay:

http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/politics/yes-vote-no-guarantee-of-independence-1.223772

The name alludes me Athgray but it was Labour peer iirc, Baroness Jay or someone similar.

Have not seen Only an Excuse for a few years, but caught it this hogmany. Skip to 5:10 for a laugh. Don’t know if Only an Excuse is shown in England, mainly about football, but oil and currency are covered so quite topical here.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-msOaMhd-8k[/video]