shaggmiester, never met you and probably never will but I wish you a speedy recovery. Not good, especially before Summer 🙁

Don't bloody well tempt me with offers of 224s. I've always longed to ride a real DH bike, and never have….

Good point again awhiles – I'd forgotten about the parallelogram design – nicely illustrated by a Schwinn 88 that my mate used to have.

can anyone name a MX/Enduro/GP motorbike suspension system that is a multi-pivot e.g. 4-bar (don't confuse linkage-actuated shocks) and is dominant in its sport (not the same as commercial success though the former often influences the latter)?

talk about single-pivot inefficiencies is interesting, when the lack of talk/development into linkage front suspension is considered. Why is there such emphasis on creating complex solution to the rear end of a bike and not the front? The telescopic design, when viewed analytically has its flaws. It dives under braking, changes bike geometry as it compresses, has large amount of stiction & can bob under rider force. Lawill, Girvin, AMP & Whyte all took this on to not much success.

The tele fork, however, is very workable in design, it's inefficiencies can be tamed with clever damping, it is light and has fewest moving parts. Much like a single pivot.

5 or a Blur LT…u know which id take 8)

Sam r – what most of the 5 riders here are saying is exactly that. That is, it may not be the plushest or most efficient in terms of bump isolation, but that is really not that important against other factors. We can cope with a few bumps of course, but what we gain is stiffness, simplicity, reliability and predictable action that we can live with.

USE made a fork that didn't dive – everyone though it was really really weird to ride since we've all grown so used to it. They don't sell well…

Sam R – uneven, low RPM pedalling and a chainline that dosen't follow the swingarm scupper that comparison.

MX/Enduro/GP motorbike systems are driven by a engine not a set of cranks gears and legs attached to a moving mass, totally different design considerations!!

The 'other' thing that scuppers the comparison is the fact the motorbikes don't have a rider that weighs significantly more than the bike itself sitting on top of it spinning his legs round (as Eccles mentions).

About the only comparison to make is the fact that they both have 2 wheels.

can anyone name a MX/Enduro/GP motorbike suspension system that is a multi-pivot e.g. 4-bar (don't confuse linkage-actuated shocks) and is dominant in its sport (not the same as commercial success though the former often influences the latter)?

Not dominant but fairly successful (take a look at pic 8/17 for an interesting front end – similar to Spec' Demo back end?):

http://www.motorsportretro.com/2009/12/and-now-for-something-completely-different%E2%80%93-elf%E2%80%99s-experimental-bikes-from-1978-1988/

It dives under braking, changes bike geometry as it compresses, has large amount of stiction & can bob under rider force. Lawill, Girvin, AMP & Whyte all took this on to not much success.

That depends on how you measure success…

…The lawill, Amp, Whyte all have much in common with the BMW's telelever & Duolever designs, which are direct descendants of Norman Hossack's Mclaren F1 design. Think along the lines of inherent anti dive without the need for complex damping, stays active throughout braking , low stiction etc. pretty much the holy grail of suspension design that's been around for decades. However, the drawback from cycle design is its weight and expense. It wouldn't have taken much for Whyte's PRST1 to be very good, except it was pretty much lambasted by everyone based on being damned Fugly.

In the world of MTB's it could be the dogs danglies but unless the popular press say so nobody believes it, and unless its the latest colour or fashion nobody will buy it.

I've had a few Orange single pivots including 5's, Patriots and a 224, though I now ride a Nicolai 4 bar. For what its worth I'd say as a do it all bike I found the 5 to be great. No matter how basic the suspension design is, or whatever shock is on it they never failed to raise a smile from me – Orange know a lot about geometry, and that overcomes many suspension design deficiencies such as those mentioned above.

On the topic of brake jack – I understand this to be the effect of the suspension decompressing/rising/jacking up under braking. This is not the same as the rear suspension locking or stiffening under braking. The Orange "suffers" from the latter but not the former (I say suffer in the loosest possible meaning of the word as its not something that cannot be overcome and you get used to it very quickly – especially straight from a hardtail).

The thing about the basic single pivot design from Orange is that it is so predictable in any situation that it is not demanding in any way. In my eyes this just translates as the rider being able to focus on the ride rather than the bike.

Sorry about the long post, but hey, its a long thread.

You should all be glad to know that all this is fuelling my desire to get the 5 frame I bought over the weekend (don't worry it was secondhand so not obscenely expensive, more re-assuringly expensive) built up so I can get it out the door and experience some of that there brake-jack, is it like beer? will it make my head ache the morning after? It sounds good to me 🙂

Unless you race bikes for a living, its all about fun. The 5 may not have the best suspension action, but I still think it was the best fun bike I've owned. I want a new one! Does anyone want to swap one for a Blur 4x?!?

For shame DD. Hang your head in shame. I shall be around shortly to take your blur4x badge and gun from you.

He he Hora, I know, I know, I feel bad, I love the Blur, the funny thing is its a better bike, but somehow its not as much fun…. or maybe I looking at things through rose tinted goggles

fun? no-one mentioned anything about fun. Hang on, i've got an equation for that lying around here somewhere…

All tech issues aside, I have an spesh fsr xc (which I was happy with)and a 5 and the reason I got the 5 was after riding a couple of different 5's it felt significantly better at climbing and descending. Also as for the niche comments I was at GT a month ago and it was by far the most common bike there.

my new frame will be a 5 to replace my old 5 not changing for nowt

Also as for the niche comments I was at GT a month ago and it was by far the most common bike there.

Bloody Northerners on their annual hols. Other folk tend to splash out abit and go overseas 😆

"shaggmiester, never met you and probably never will but I wish you a speedy recovery. Not good, especially before Summer"
cheers hora, hopefully 6weeks and i'll be riding 2 handed again! anyone tried riding a blood?, awesome bike! 😉

Eccles, anc & hepstanton

my points were: people wax lyrical about linkage rear suspension on the basis of efficiency, but are happy with telescopic forks, of which there are more "efficient" alternatives, none of which have gained much market share/podium success.

motorbikes experience irregular torque & load transfers, similar, albeit vastly magnified, to your humble mountain bike. I don't understand how the rider mass vs. bike mass difference, though obvious, is terribly influential on the efficiency (energy loss, ultimately) of a rear suspension action. Could you expand?

GREAT THREAD!
"Orange are not very good"
"yes they are"
"Oh no they're not"
"Oh yes they are"
etc etc
I have a bike which I like (not a 5 but I do like them), others may not like it, which is fine with me because I'm the one who rides it.
Do I worry that someone may point and say "that's ugly/crap/whatever"?
No, I couldn't give a f***.
I do like them bloods BTW, but I could never do one justice.

Sam, I think he was saying that the requirements for a good mtb sus design are different from those of a motorbike, for a whole host of reasons.

Bloody Northerners on their annual hols. Other folk tend to splash out abit and go overseas

Most of them sounded as though they were southern shandy drinking mincers. I was there as a local (an hours drive) 8)

Technically speaking they are southerners to you however Yorkshiremen aren't Shandy drinkers. Fighters, lovers and Poets 🙂

Someone pass me a ****' shandy …. ,,, hic … Zzzzzz