Yet there is always one constant.

An American shock.

So no such thing as 'British is best.

Was anyone trying to say it was? They'd be pretty stupid 🙂

"And brake jack is only a bad thing if you're a shit rider."

Rubbish. We all have to brake sometimes, and sometimes on the rough bits. I also don't know why everyone complains about a few braking bumps – they make corners more interesting, esp on a hardtail.

I need another go on a 5 because when we had a go on a 5 pro demo day, we didn't rate it – too slow up and down. But could have been wrong, maybe it didn't suit the terrain or it could have been setup funny or cosmic rays might have affected us.

Molgrips wrote, "We've been through this before. That wheel spinning thing is so negligible compared to the other forces invovled that you have to have the bike on a stand with no shock in it to see it happening. And it's just momentum transferrence. If you were braking down a hill at constant speed the effect you mention would be non-existent."

OK, not saying you're wrong here, but this explanation sounds false. You say "That wheel spinning thing" and "momentum transferrence" but brake jack isn't usually blamed on the momentum of the wheel… The energy involved there is tiny.

Buzzlightyear, you obviously need rider training in climbing/descending. Only great riders get the potential out of the Five..
🙄

A great new advertising slogon for STW'ers and their Fives'

Soft words, strongly spoken

Wow…this thread got serious!

Hora…you never know when to stop do you? You don't like Orange 5's….we get it okay.

nickegg ok……until next time someone asks.. 8)

Thank you 😉

You say "That wheel spinning thing" and "momentum transferrence" but brake jack isn't usually blamed on the momentum of the wheel… The energy involved there is tiny

That's what I am trying to say – someone was trying to prove that brake jack existed by suggesting you remove the shock, put the bike in a stand, spin the wheel and apply the back brake to see the suspension compress. Real-world example FAIL.

the 5 is alive! the ultimate trail warrior that likes to be ridden hard! so if you cant offer it this then stick to your scott spark or sumat cos you'll never get the best of it, all you guys slaggin it just dont or cant ride hard enough! end of!

at least i had a good word to put in about the orange five…. !
and Danny Mac also had the enjoyment of riding it on his recent visit to the calder-valley ..
orange five is the way forward…. big thumbs up !

"the 5 is alive! the ultimate trail warrior that likes to be ridden hard! so if you cant offer it this then stick to your scott spark or sumat cos you'll never get the best of it, all you guys slaggin it just dont or cant ride hard enough! end of!"

Ah, but does it come with a set of front-mounted wirecutters 😉

Seriously though, who's slagging the Five? I think most people like it, it's a fantastic bike. Just that it's pretty damn expensive, and the suspension divides opinion a bit with its crudeness (or simplicity, depending on who you ask).

This hurts but i am with Northwind (a little)
But expensive is down to the construction and the way the parts of the 5
are made, and are not custom drawn Alluminium. Regarding the above I feel the ST4 and Blood seem to others has over priced.
Only being of the way the Orange 5 is made and constructed.
But I dont make them and have no idea of cost to make/construct the ST4 and Blood.

But I have just been given the opportunity to help/Design/make and construct a new Freeride bike with an ex Kona rider, so be able to find out true costings soon.

Well at least there is alot of passion around the Five.

"Seriously though, who's slagging the Five? "

Sorry, we just didn't enjoy it compared with our other bikes which we all rode back-to-back all afternoon on the Qs (GT Avalanche, Giant TranceX2, Orange P7 Pro). We all instantly took to the P7 though – it felt alive and responsive whatever trail it was thrown down – you wanted to rag it all the time. Dave bought the P7.

So I'd like another go at a 5.

It was only once i bought a Cove Handjob that i found myself unwilling to take out my 5 and instead always grabbing the Cove.

Perhaps the 5 was too similar to the hardtail??? as someone mentioned above. Whereas my new Zesty feels completely different and a total contrast, as it should be!

only been riding about 3 years ,got my 5 in july 08 after a sub 5 , a trance and a s-works epic , at a certain age and a bit of a mincer on the desents the 5 is a great skill compensator . from a play on the local hills too all day enduros it works for me 😀

There's no such thing as the "ultimate" as there are too many variables although you can build a 5 up light or heavy or somewhere in between – as an only bike they make a lot of sense. They tend to be ridden by people who love to ride instead of concerning themselves about pivot points, linkage ratios, cosmetics and all that other boring nerd shit perpetuated by pasty forum gayboys. Pro riders love them, people who work in bike shops love them, the magazines love them – trail bike of the year 3 years running in one mag and Dirt magazine rate the 5 as one of the best ever made. Not everyone's cup of tea sure but there's no accounting for taste.

To those who think they are too expensive: Maybe you're in the wrong game and should take up something cheaper if the price bothers you.

"To those who think they are too expensive: Maybe you're in the wrong game and should take up something cheaper if the price bothers you."

Silly nonsense 😉 They're just too expensive for what they are, doesn't mean we can't afford them. Since you were dropping names of recommendations, Dirt also rate the Pitch Pro and the entire bike costs about the same as the Five frame.

(the Five isn't the only frame that's too expensive of course, I wouldn't have paid RRP for my Hemlock)

There's no such thing as the "ultimate" as there are too many variables although you can build a 5 up light or heavy or somewhere in between – as an only bike they make a lot of sense. They tend to be ridden by people who love to ride instead of concerning themselves about pivot points, linkage ratios, cosmetics and all that other boring nerd shit perpetuated by pasty forum gayboys. Pro riders love them, people who work in bike shops love them, the magazines love them – trail bike of the year 3 years running in one mag and Dirt magazine rate the 5 as one of the best ever made. Not everyone's cup of tea sure but there's no accounting for taste.

Pass me the sick bucket 😆

I guess if we are looking for longevity, popularity (remember a popular frame means word of mouth and ability get noticed)..then there is only one:

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/allmtn-full-suspension/santa-cruz/heckler/PRD_363227_1547crx.aspx

None of that boutique, niche UK bullshit here. Simple, it works and its proved very popular for a reason. Never been cheap, but shifted. 😉

Hora, do you ever get piles?

No, what are yours like and what to expect?

That's because God made you the perfect arsehole.

brake jack is easy:

# imagine a single pivot bike – like a 5.

# suspension travel is caused by the swingarm rotating around the pivot.

# the rear wheel is in contact with the ground, the bike is moving forward, the wheel is rotating.

# the wheel is rotating in the same direction/sense as would be seen in the swingarm during compression.

# apply the back brake.

# the ground skidding past the tyre creates a torque, which causes the swingarm to rotate = brake jack

i don't like brake jack – why pay for suspension that doesn't work when the going gets bumpy?

lots of people DO like brake jack – cos it causes the rear wheel to compress, which helps balance out some of the nose dive from the front brake.

most people don't really think about it, and don't care (this is probably the healthy way to go about it).

neutral bikes feel a bit nervous on the brakes – cos nose dive is much more noticeable.

brake-jacky bikes feel a bit harsh when you use the back brake over bumps.

most motorbike designs encourage brake jack – cos it helps keep the bike level – the lawhwilhill design would be a neutral braker – but mert lawhwill put a small linkage in to keep the brake jack going – he found it usefull, and so do lots of other people*:

ie, in a mountain bike scenario; you could use brake jack down a steep techy chute – trailing the back brake would cause the rear suspension to compress a bit more – lowering the BB and slackening the head angle a bit more.

(* all the lawwill design mountain bikes i've seen have kept this small parallelogram linkage by the rear axle, and then they've claimed it's to keep the suspension active, and that's a fail)

That's because God made you the perfect arsehole.

It'd take one to know one wouldn't it sweetie x

I like your bag. Was it made in the UK?

It came as part of the outfit. I'm actually wearing a matching pencil pleat skirt ensemble.

ahwiles….that there makes sense and i for one will not tolerate sense, fact or anything else that gets in the way of talking bollox 😆

@iainc I've got a 5 and I'm looking to get a rocklobster 853 as a contrast, how do u find the rocklobster

an explanation, with equations and everything, on brake jack here*

*not mine & I've just skim-read it, but it seems sound

looking good hora lol

I personally don't buy the claim that they are made in the UK. Maybe the swingarm is, but it must surely be more cost effective to have the main frame built overseas? Maybe they just assemble the frames in the UK and spray them here. Built in the UK is not the same as made in the UK, and don't Orange just claim that they are built here, which does imply at least some overseas manufacture?

I dont understand the expensive thing? perhaps if you compare
them to enormous companies like giant etc. but to build up a
bike from any of the equivalent european,american,canadian
companies is going to cost even more with a like for like spec!

cut, folded, welded, painted & assembled in Halifax

awhiles – interesting, but do you know of a bike where that would not apply? It woudl have to be one with a forward axle path, which would be terrible whilst pedalling surely?

I reckon the diving or otherwise of a bike is far far more dependent on the position of the centre of gravity of the rider and hence the geometry of the bike than that effect.

I further maintain that the roughness of a 5 in rocky braking is due to the damping requirements of the frame…

I don't and have never owned an Orange. If it was a US made frame it would be more expensive I think it's bang on price wise.

Ultimate do it all bike – Yup I think so.

Can be built light or heavy, is strong, is low maintenance, is easy to set up and tune, has good and completely contemporary geometry, good cable routing, climbs well, decends well, had suspension that is fine for 90% of people 90% of the time.

I can't think of another bike that comes close for the cash especially for the ahem, larger chap.

I'm no fanboi but it's easily the best sus bike for many UK riders.

Here's some tenuously related graphs, to keep it going
08 remedy moved rear pivot to the rear axle

and a techier link, which I haven't read 🙂
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?35572-quot-Brake-jack-quot-an-explanation.

Not bad techie link but I think he's over complicating it. Fairly easy to see that a rearward force at the contact patch would result in a turning moment about the pivot. There may even be a few mistakes, looking at the diagrams but I CBA to read the text to find out 🙂

But it does extend my understanding of what the phrase 'brake jack' was intended to mean with regards frames.

molgrips:

4-bars with long flat top links are more or less neutral-brakers.

(think ellsworth, cotic, old turners, speccy demo, boardman, etc)

this is because the wheel and calliper are attached to a frame element that moves up and down, it 'translates' it doesn't 'rotate'.

(unless the design is a perfect parallelogram, there will be some element rotation, but it's greatly reduced over a single-pivot)

"Ah, but does it come with a set of front-mounted wirecutters"

ha! like it, wish it did come with a set of front mounted wire cutters as i would'nt be sat here scratching my knackers reading all this shit an stupid **** graphs! oh and let me tell you sumet, i had a go on a zesty an i was scared shittless! took it down sumat gnarly and felt the frame was gunna snap! don't care what the mags say, it's a xc/marathon bike, cannot take abuse like a 5, oh selling a 224 aswell if anyones interested?