Absolutely gopping.

As above looks awful. Weight wise, my Trance X29 2 is 34lbs with a dropper fitted. Pretty basic spec though. 29er full sussers are pretty chunky though.

Paceman – Member
That quoted weight must include pedals, even for a bike aimed more at going down that up, 34lbs+ seems very lardy.
POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO #

I don’t think you know much about mountain biking do you?

Well so far it is already 33lb effectively isn’t it, and bike manufacturer’s always quote weights without pedals don’t they? It is a bit lardy, but then most bikes seem to weigh more than quoted. There’s probably a hunk of weight in the OE tyres – swop them for some proper things that actually grip and you’d shave over a lb in all the right places. Then once you go to a 1×10 set-up…..

It just seems that Orange are being more honest than most. Quite a few manu’s hide bike weights. My mate’s allegedly lightweight Specialized weighs more than my Orange. It’s not really worth getting hung up on though is it? What does it ride like, and is it fun?

again regardless of how it rides, what size and what colour it will sell well adorn audi’s be matched with a baby 5 and get raved about. Potential master stroke from orange what to get for the man who has everything loves 29r’s but can’t bear to part with his 5…..

You really do have a chip on your shoulder don’t you. Do you secretly want an Audi? Grow up…

“more capable equals faster crashes” argument

This although sounding daft is something I found to be a proper issue. The first time out on my Camber I had two monumental crashes – the sort where you watch the bike cartwheel off down the trail as you sail merrily through the air. The second of the two I hit the ground so hard my shoes flew off*..

On the subject of fun, I’ve found that I don’t really have the same enjoyment riding mine as I did my five. I’m riding in North Wales this weekend so this will make my mind up one way or another

*must tie laces

Tom_B:As above looks awful. Weight wise, my Trance X29 2 is 34lbs with a dropper fitted. Pretty basic spec though. 29er full sussers are pretty chunky though.

Seriously? You think that looks worse than the Trance X29er? I guess there is no accounting for taste 🙂

flange, I’ll be interested to hear what you decide.

I’ve got a Cube AMS 29’er (120mm) that only cost £1200 new from Germany – cracking machine — however. I’m selling my orange 5 to get the Orange 5 29’er and am slowly moving the bike-fleet to 29’er bikes.

Someone above said the Orange 5 is like the “911 of mtb’s”.
The Cube is like an American Ford Mustang. 300bhp, but only costs £16k new.

Whilst the Cube has a similar spec and weight to the orange (for £1800 less!), it has a slightly mental suspension design and struggles a bit with our weather conditions (it has 8 bearings/bushings rather than 2).

rapiddescent? Have you managed to get a test ride on the Five29 or are you buying on faith? I can see the advantage of simplicity, but is there anything else that particularly attracted you to the Five29?

Will be having a test ride at a test day in a couple of weeks time;
http://www.dalesbikecentre.co.uk/index.php/shop/demo-bikes/demo-day/
Also having a go on a Rumblefish.

The Orange whether 29 or 26 is being considered due to nearing pensionable age and the single pivot frame will be easier to maintain.

Sounds like a fun day out. I’ll be interested to hear how you get on.

I’m a few years away from drawing my pension, but there is still a part of me that thinks I could just buy a Five and it may be the last MTB I ever need. It is capable of going anywhere that I have the nerve to go and with a bit of care (and possibly some support from the factory) could quite possibly last as long as I want to ride. Scary thought.

I’m a few years away from drawing my pension, but there is still a part of me that thinks I could just buy a Five and it may be the last MTB I ever need. It is capable of going anywhere that I have the nerve to go and with a bit of care (and possibly some support from the factory) could quite possibly last as long as I want to ride. Scary thought.

That was me a couple of years ago, so I got one. Best bike Iv’e had by far & I don’t intend to change it!
Why do people worry so much about weight? Mate of mine rode his Patriot up the Col Du Cou & didn’t complain a few years ago. The bloody thing weighed in at about 40lbs too.

muddyground – Member

There’s probably a hunk of weight in the OE tyres – swop them for some proper things that actually grip and you’d shave over a lb in all the right places.

Mmm, not convinced- the heaviest rubber queen’s just shy of a kilo but you’d not want to put anything too light on one of these anyway. You only lose about 100g an end going to the folding Protection model 2.2 RQ.

I want to see a frame weight but Orange tend to keep those to themselves. Weight isn’t everything but it’s something 😉 This thing’s not much lighter than my 224’s going to be!

For me in the 20/22″ frame i’d be looking at the 29er would look better.

As for riding, for me the bigger wheels would be better as i’m out all day. There isn’t enough steep stuff for me to worry about having too long a bike as it would only be a small percentage of the ride.

If I rode the alps regularly and uplifts I’d go 26″.

The beauty of a choice 🙂

Neither of those reasons specifically. For downhill it’s simple, there isn’t the hardware- if you could get a 29er Boxxer and a 29er 721 and a 29er dualply minion to fit to your 29er Glory then you’d see people using it. As it is, people are working on it with Manitou forks (gah!) and whatever else is available, and unsurprisingly it’s less good than the tried and tested 26ers. Keep watching. 650B is already creeping in with KHS and Intense.

No, if downhill teams thought it would give them an advantage they’d have pestered Fox/Marz/RS by now to produce them a fork and tyre manufactures to produce 29er prototype dual plys.

So far though, none of the top DH teams have bothered.

I wonder why. Is it because….29ers are shit for downhill? Because when you look at top DH riders, they don’t just point the bike and let it roll over bumps….they’re hopping, skipping and manualing their way down the runs?

bwaarp – Member

So far though, none of the top DH teams have bothered.

Intense pushed for DH 29ers for years and got nowhere (back when Intense were a big deal in racing). And the fact that Intense, KHS and Scott are all competing with 650B but being forced to use bodges proves that manufacturers pushing for the kit doesn’t make it appear. Fox might have a 650B 40 in time for the world cup, might not, they’re trailing behind where some teams want to go.

Fox produced a USD 26 inch fork for the hell of it….so they can prototype forks pretty easily…. but they’ll want teams to cover some of the costs of R&D.

The only ones that can afford to do that are not Intense, Scott or KHS. These guys aren’t big players, if Trek, Specialized or Santa Cruz wanted them prototypes would be banged out in half a season.

29ers are like air forks in the MX world, they seem like a good idea on paper and in the marketing. All the teams buy into them and then the top riders like Dungey and Reed realize…actually I can’t sodding well feel the front end.

And the guys that have to do it all alone and push every step of the way to get it done are doing it because… it sucks?

And the guys that have to do it all alone and push every step of the way to get it done are doing it because… it sucks?

As a way to differentiate themselves from Trek, Santa Cruz and Specialized because their bikes and riders are inferior. They know they can’t hope to compete with the likes of Gwin on the mountain bike to a Honda GP bike – so they’ll just try and sell some quackery as the next big thing…..using the slogan….it’s goes faster cuz it’s got bigger wheels yeah…..and idiots will then buy them.

OK, so- the reason that 29ers aren’t used must be performance. And the reason 650B is being used must be for marketing. And there’s no way that these arguments could possibly be reversed. Oh and you can tell that bigger wheels are a bad idea because the teams and manufacturers currently on top, who have the greatest desire for stability, haven’t pushed for a change which could disadvantage them.

Let’s wait and see. 650B is already performing better than most people expected at the highest level, despite the hardware handicaps. And let’s be honest, what works for the best riders doesn’t always work for the dobbers, it just influences what they buy. I reckon I could benefit more from a bigger wheel than the pros 😉 But nobody plans to sell bikes by racing less well.

OK, so- the reason that 29ers aren’t used must be performance. And the reason 650B is being used must be for marketing. And there’s no way that these arguments could possibly be reversed. Oh and you can tell that bigger wheels are a bad idea because the teams and manufacturers currently on top, who have the greatest desire for stability, haven’t pushed for a change which could disadvantage them.

Let’s wait and see. 650B is already performing better than expected at the highest level, despite the hardware handicaps. And let’s be honest, what works for the best riders doesn’t always work for the dobbers, it just influences what they buy. I reckon I could benefit more from a bigger wheel than the pros

If Trek thought they could get an advantage over Santa Cruz with a 29er they’d have tested one in the worlds by now.

650B might end up competing but everything I’ve read, including timed races has indicated they offer no advantages over 26ers.

Downhillers don’t want big easy rolling wheels, they want bikes you can bounce off terrain more easily like this.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZRX0p_XQVw[/video]

Sure there are people who can throw 29ers around pretty well but they are not optimal for that use at all.

I like big fat 2.4 inch dual plys in the right conditions…..these weigh a **** bomb on 26inch bikes…..imagine how much they’d weigh on a 29er…..I don’t really want to have to lose tyre diameter to save weight as it really helps with the maximum lean angle and stability in corners.

Then there’s the whole issue of the chainstay length in 29ers…..so increased CS length and rotating weight…..great….just what I want for doing manuals, popping off terrain and executing sudden directional changes on the ground or in the air.

In fact watching that video….Sam Hill would had a tyre shaped burn mark on his arse had that been a 29er.

As that video shows, the rider and the bike are a highly dynamic machine….looking at the way Sam moves around on that bike he’s clearly not going to go faster just because bigger wheels roll over stuff more easily.

650B might end up competing but everything I’ve read, including timed races has indicated they offer to advantages over 26ers.

When has there ever been an equal comparison though, for downhill?

Thing is… We were talking about downhill at all levels, not just the top end. And at the moment, it’s just impossible for anyone to buy a proper 29er dh bike. But if they existed, even if nobody ever used one at the top end, folks would be using them at the dobber end. And probably some would benefit, because most folks can’t ride like sam hill but anyone can trundle down a hill 😉 The world cup isn’t the be-all and end-all, just look at the number of folks that buy Orange DH bikes.

No I don’t see that people would be using them – the hardest bit of downhill is anything that is related to going airborne or picking the right lines and hitting them. If you can’t ride an 8 to 10 inch travel bike through a rock garden and need 29 inch wheels your doing something so horrendously wrong that you should just give up and quit the sport.

Even total n00bs on the race circuit need to be able to manual stuff and hip jumps – A 29er with an insanely long chainstay and 7 inches of travel would make this harder. Downhill bikes are already hard enough to chuck about as they are.

Orange DH bikes

Nothing wrong with aluminium single pivots. It’s the geometry, sizing, tyres, correct basic suspension setup, frame stiffness and a good feel of the front contact patch that really count.

Lord knows how this has got onto 29er DH bikes, STW eh. Anyway, I’m not too convinced about the chainstay length argument….specialized enduro 26 v 29…….11mm difference. 11mm. I struggle with the idea that half an inch is the difference between being Sam Hill and being a mincer….

11mm difference. 11mm.

And also a much larger wheel to rotate around and find them balance spot.

I am convinced, ever tried a full downhill bouncer with a ridiculously long chain stay compared to one with a nice short one? It’s the difference between making certain jumps relatively easy and fun and turning them into a complete chore – and also turning manuals into a chore. It’s the combination of the 180mm to 200mm of travel and that long chainstay that does it.

It all adds up as well, when your constantly trying to lift your bike around on a 5-10 minute downhill run do you really want to become even more fatigued by the extra weight of pedaling, the extra effort put into correcting jumps where you stray offline, the extra effort that you have to put into manualing due to the CS and wheel size.

Then theres the fact that smaller riders are more affected by these things than others, do you think an average height rider is going to be able to ride a 29er downhill bike as well as a 6 foot 5 rider could?

Are they going to produce two sets of Boxxers, one 29 and one 26 for different height riders and bump prices up even further? Upside down forks are the answer you’ll say! Because those have worked really well so far! DVO might manage to make a USD fork work for pedal bikes I guess, might being the emphasis. Even then they’d have to ship with different optional internals to alter travel etc.

Lots of work for **** all gain.

I’m not suggesting a longer/shorter chainstay is better/worse, just that i don’t believe it’s as big an issue as you’re making out. I can’t believe 11mm will turn a good handling bike into a poor one. The bike has to be considered as a whole, not just one measurement.

And where a 29er may take more effort in certain situations in others the added stability and grip could be beneficial, no? Swings and roundabouts.

CS length makes a huge difference to me on big bouncey bikes.

I’m not sure you’d even have much extra grip in the downhill discipline, your going to have to lose some tyre diameter so you don’t have an incredibly heavy wheel set. More momentum in rock sections and more grip when the bike is leaned up straight? For sure….but since when did mountain bikes have engines and need copious amounts of straight line grip to get the power down? More grip at high lean angles compared to a higher volume, lower pressure tyre? Debatable.

The question is whether that increase in roll over is worth it considering all the other areas where you lose performance – weight, maneuverability, loss of suspension travel to accommodate larger wheels etc.

Don’t need grip when you’re going so fast you’re floating over the stuff anyway.

The bike has to be considered as a whole, not just one measurement.

Burn the witch!

A bike MUST BE RIGHT ON PAPER!!!!

Grip is grip, whether it be downhill, uphill or alonghill (did i just invent a new niche?!). If grip WASN’T an issue you’d surely throw your dual ply booger tyres away and revel in having a lighter bike because of that?

If grip WASN’T an issue you’d surely throw your dual ply booger tyres away

Side wall is what Dual Ply protects…

Don’t need grip when you’re going so fast you’re floating over the stuff anyway.

While watching Mr Hill close up in the flesh on the weekend it is true grip is not required AT TIMES however once he had finished skipping and floating down one section the hook out at the end and the small touches he was making to change direction etc showed that grip was at a premium when it was required.

Yeah but there’s different types of grip isn’t there – there’s straight line grip and cornering grip. I assume the latter of which can be affected by tyre volume. Not only that, you’re taking some of the bounce and grip out by running skinnier tyres as they are less able to deform to the tertain. Why would I choose to run higher diameter skinner heavier tyre’s and wheels when I can run lighter wider rims and higher volume tyres to gain grip?

But no, I wouldn’t chuck the 2.4 dual plys because there’s a fine line between grip and weight and I don’t think 2.4 dual ply’s on a 29er would hit that fine line.

There’s such thing as having to much grip as well – kind of see rolling resistance…..

Touches he was making to change direction etc showed that grip was at a premium when it was required.

And those changes would become harder to make if the rotating mass of the wheels became higher – lack of grip might cost you time – so can not having enough time to lay the bike down from one corner to the next.

I concur, back to swings and roundabouts thing again. The lord giveth and the lord taketh away.

Personally, i’m open to the idea of a 29er DH bike. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Has anyone other than Intense had a crack at one?

p.s my experience of 29ers is that i have MORE time to get the bike set up for corners or direction changes as i’m having less to deal with in terms of the bike moving around, being knocked off line etc

I think everyone’s forgetting that a 29er DH bike won’t happen because they physically can’t fit 8″ of travel and 29″ wheels in a well handling bike.

KHS and Scott so we’re back to my original point.

I could almost see the point of 29 inch downhill bikes on a limited set of tracks…..but I’d only have one if was already rocking a 26 inch bike as I think that wheel size is way more versatile for downhill.

I think everyone’s forgetting that a 29er DH bike won’t happen because they physically can’t fit 8″ of travel and 29″ wheels in a well handling bike.

I did mention that as well, I don’t think wheels slow down energy transfer in medium to big repeated hits in the same way that another inch of suspension travel does.

More travel also = more small bump sensitivity = more grip.

Personally, i’m open to the idea of a 29er DH bike. Nothing ventured nothing gained. Has anyone other than Intense had a crack at one?

I think Orange are bringing out a long slack 29er at some point. Somebody should start a thread about it 🙂

Point taken, thread derailment over on my behalf.

bwaarp – Member

Are they going to produce two sets of Boxxers, one 29 and one 26

Fox say they’re going to production with the 650B- no different.

Nothing wrong with aluminium single pivots

Never said there was- obviously I was using it as a demonstration that people’s buying habits aren’t ruled by world cups or what’s new and exciting, not making any comment on the bike (I own one 😉 Some day I might finish putting it together)

No I don’t see that people would be using them

Look at what people use as it is! Everything from world cup reps to shed-welded hardtails, and yes, 29ers. I totally stand by it, if there were clown DH bikes to buy, people would be riding them.

As for dualplies- again, watch this space, Schwalbe were testing their SG carcass in the world cup last year and Sam Hill’s raced on a version of Specialized’s SX (though I don’t know if that was at world cup level- also I don’t know if it was a race in which he had a horrible crash 😉 )

Point taken, thread derailment over on my behalf.

It’s OK, I was just having a laugh. It’s not my thread anyway and I’m quite enjoying this discussion. Just couldn’t resist, sorry 🙂

I think the thread had pretty much petered out til Bwaarp gave it an injection of Heated Debate 🙂

I bet the Santa Cruz Syndicate will be on 650b or maybe even 29″ for Worlds.

I very much doubt the winner will be on 26″.