Your attitude is **** up when it comes to driving. It’s a constant learning process.

Yes, I know.

But there’s not much I can learn from you if you insist on completely misunderstanding everything I say. Your comments on the other thread were all totally missing the point. But you ignore me trying to correct your understanding and think I’m just an idiot who not only has learned nothing in 20 years of driving but can’t take criticism and learn.

I don’t have issues with driving btw. You think I do, despite never having seen me drive. Perhaps you have an issue with your understanding of what you can learn about someone else on an internet forum.

Point the first, the fact that it’s a bike is irrelevant and muddies the waters.

I guess the relevance is probably his ability to accelerate much faster than me.

Point the second, when entering a roundabout, you give way to traffic on the roundabout (unless indicated otherwise). The fact that you might have to wait a bit is also irrelevant. How would that stand up after a collision? “Well, I know I should have waited, but it would have been ages so I just pulled out.”

I’m really not an impatient driver – I’m normally the one that gets beeped at for staying behind people when I don’t feel it is safe to overtake.

I honestly didn’t pull out because I was in a rush. I pulled out because the nearest vehicles were 100m away and weren’t going much faster than me so I (mis?)judged that I had plenty of time.

If I’d thought they were too close I’d have been perfectly happy to wait.

It boils down to not knowing where the motorcylist was headed (was he not indicating? He should have indicated left after passing the previous exit), guessing, and guessing incorrectly.

I didn’t see an indicator but I did guess correctly where he was heading – that wasn’t the issue – I just expected him to pass behind me for that exit, not in front of me.

did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn’t going off at the first exit?!

Let me be the first to post a section of highway code:

186
Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

GrahamS

I didn’t see an indicator but I did guess correctly where he was heading – that wasn’t the issue – I just expected him to pass behind me for that exit, not in front of me.

I can sympathise (see my post above) and he probably should have been behind you, but had you not pulled out, maybe he would have been in the left lane.

Personally, I would have been indicating on my motorbike and taking it easy, but drivers don’t always see indicators….

While the road position was fine, did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn’t going off at the first exit?!
That’s one of the problems at roundabouts, nobody seems to like to indicate.

I didn’t indicate right because, as I understand it, you’re not supposed to!
I indicate left to say I’m going off once I pass the last exit before mine. I don’t indicate right unless I’m going to a right(ish) exit or going all the way around.

lightman – Member

If you’re in the outside lane and you’re going to be passing exits but not taking them, why not just put your right indicator on to let people know!

Because you might get a driver ahead pulling out onto the roundabout to take their next exit, thinking you are going to continue around the roundabout when you’re not.
This is extremely bad practise, and I have witnessed it a few times despite never having coming across anywhere this is taught. 💡

I didn’t indicate because, as I understand it, you’re not supposed to!

I don’t indicate when I’m entering a roundabout when I’m goign straight on. I will indciate as I’m exiting though, if only to give the people waiting to join at that point an idea of what I’m planning.

While it appears by the highway code that you’re not advised to, it certainly doesn’t hurt to let people know.
If I am in the outside lane, I always indicate right if I’m coming up to an exit I’m not taking, mostly because I don’t want people pulling out in front of me because they think I might be turning left but just didn’t bother indicating.

ps.
The m/c shouldn’t really have cut across you anyway, but an indicator may have helped him decide what to do.

I believe the m/c should have already moved into the outside lane filtering in behind traffic in that lane, thus making his intentions clear.

If by this you mean the m/c should have positioned himself behind the car vacating the exit before the OP then that is a massive no.
1: It runs the risk that the car will obscure him from traffic joining
2: People will pull out thinking he is leaving at that exit.

IMHO if you want this to be a learning exercise I am going to guess that the key to the m/c position lies in the fact that the exit he is going for has two options. I suspect he is taking the R/H one of those hence he is keeping right in order to do so & explains why he isn’t keen to pull in behind the OP.

Fair do’s to the OP for trying to understand why the situation happened rather than just going ‘bloody motorcyclists’.

I get out of that roundabout, as I said I do it all the time. However, there are problems with its design that could be helped if people didn’t go so fast around it. Take my word for it.

I will just back up molgrips on how hideous the Gabalfa interchange is, definitely doesnt look it on Google Maps though. You genuinely have to gun it 90% of the time just to get out…not to mention the ice-like surface on some of the exits in the wet, causing lots of (fun) tail happy exits 🙂 😀

lightman – Member

If you’re in the outside lane and you’re going to be passing exits but not taking them, why not just put your right indicator on to let people know!

sbob – Member

Because you might get a driver ahead pulling out onto the roundabout to take their next exit, thinking you are going to continue around the roundabout when you’re not.
This is extremely bad practise, and I have witnessed it a few times despite never having coming across anywhere this is taught.

I think you’re miss reading what I mean and I don’t get why you think someone would pull out in front of me if I was doing that! Nobody EVER has.
If I was in the OP’s position, I would’ve been in the inside lane (same as the op), but I would’ve indicated right to show I wasn’t coming off at the first exit, but then when I passed the first exit, I would’ve indicated left.

I think the main problem here is that its a two lane exit, if it had just been a single lane exit, then nobody could cut in front of anyone to come off.

While it appears by the highway code that you’re not advised to, it certainly doesn’t hurt to let people know.

Not sure I’m that keen on making up my own Highway Code rules – but I do see your point. The existing HC rules on indication only work properly if everybody follows them, but in reality I’d guess 50% of traffic round this way doesn’t indicate at all on roundabouts.

I pulled out because the nearest vehicles were 100m away

[pedant]
although in reality google maps shows this was probably less than 50m, and the bike was probably doing 25mph which is over 11m/second.
[/pedant]
Just shows how tricky it can be to judge distances.

gmap by Metal-Chicken, on Flickr

I would’ve indicated right to show I wasn’t coming off at the first exit, but then when I passed the first exit, I would’ve indicated left.

Meanwhile, the chap who is waiting at the first exit, wishing to take the second, pulls out because you’ve told him you’re turning right, not that you intend to take the same exit as him. 💡

Your method is a very bad idea and there are reasons why nobody teaches it.

<<Lightman>>, did I miss the bit where the OP indicated right to show he wasn’t going off at the first exit?!
…..
If you’re in the outside lane and you’re going to be passing exits but not taking them, why not just put your right indicator on to let people know!

Aw bless,
Why not come back and participate in the discussion once you’ve had your first few driving lessons.

Who’s at fault here ~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRYQL6Aqkdo

[pedant]
although in reality google maps shows this was probably less than 50m, and the bike was probably doing 25mph which is over 11m/second.
[/pedant]

Oh ye of little faith…

Motorbike is 100 meters from that exit, I’m about 10m (edit: okay 20). I didn’t think he has going much faster than me so I thought I’d be well out of his way by the time our paths crossed.

Helpful diagram OP (I know the junction)
M/C at fault (I am one btw) Inconsiderate riding, esp if he was not signalling left pre exit, gambling on his superior speed/acceleration to ‘make it’ in front of you. Gives riders a bad name. Anyone with half a brain would be signalling and moving in to the left lane, exiting safely behind you.

I think you’re miss reading what I mean and I don’t get why you think someone would pull out in front of me if I was doing that! Nobody EVER has.

I have when I’ve been taking my first exit*. As Sbob said it’s misdirection and dangerous.

*big roundabout multilane width but no markings, seen lots of people stick to RHS with right indicator on then indicate left and cross the whole roundabout immediately after the entrance before their exit, bloody stupid. With single lane roundabouts indicating right is possibly not so much of an issue

seen lots of people stick to RHS with right indicator on then indicate left and cross the whole roundabout immediately after the entrance before their exit,

Did you read what I said!
I NEVER said anywhere that I would be in the RH/inside lane, I said I would be in the outside lane, there is NO empty lane for someone to pull into, I am in it.

What’s your opinion on the above video? Apparently, it was the car driver at fault, despite following the “I don’t have to indicate if I am not coming off rule!”

Motorbike is 100 meters from that exit [about] 60m from me when I decided to move away from standstill

Its the distance from the other vehicle to your stationary car that’s important. By the time you’ve taken your foot off the clutch it’s 10m closer.

lightman – Member

Did you read what I said!
I NEVER said anywhere that I would be in the RH/inside lane, I said I would be in the outside lane, there is NO empty lane for someone to pull into, I am in it.

So you wouldn’t be indicating right if you were in the centre or right hand lane (for example if the left lane was turn left only)?

What’s your opinion on the above video? Apparently, it was the car driver at fault, despite following the “I don’t have to indicate rule if I am not coming off rule!”

Hard to tell from that clip but it looks like a spiral roundabout with marked lanes on it – in which case the left lane has to go off.

Are you saying that if the driver had breached the Highway Code by indicating right then it wouldn’t have been his fault?

I would have thought insurers would jump on any breach, especially if they had video evidence.

Its the distance from the other vehicle to your stationary car that’s important. By the time you’ve taken your foot off the clutch it’s 10m closer.

I didn’t stop. Entered the roundabout doing about 20mph as it was clear on approach. m/c and car rounded the far corner and came into view as I neared the line.

lightman – Member

What’s your opinion on the above video? Apparently, it was the car driver at fault, despite following the “I don’t have to indicate if I am not coming off rule!”

That’s not applicable to the video if the car was in the turn left only lane, in which case it was entirely the car driver’s fault, although at the same time entirely avoidable by the lorry driver.

I didn’t stop. Entered the roundabout doing about 20mph as it was clear on approach. m/c and car rounded the far corner and came into view as I neared the line.

Ahh right. The bike was going about 80mph on my calcs then – bad boy 😯

What’s your opinion on the above video? Apparently, it was the car driver at fault, despite following the “I don’t have to indicate if I am not coming off rule!”

I would have said that the car was in the wrong lane to be going right round the roundabout compounded by the fact that they appear to be committed to going off at that exit before changing their mind*. It would have been more sensible for the lorry that hits them to be in the left hand lane given the traffic situation. If I had been in the car I would have indicated right in that particular instance beacuse everything else points to him turning off.
*(or at the very least being in an awfully strange position to be continuing, they seem to be in the mouth of the exit before continuing round.)

To return to the OP. It is impossible to tell from the desciption whether you misjudged it or the m/c tries something outrageous at speed. I would only say that IMHO the onus is still on you to assess the speed of any vehicle when entering the roundabout. However, that does not allow the biker to be a prat.

SMIDSY?

I thought the OP estimated the bike to be doing about 25mph, did I imagine that?

I NEVER said anywhere that I would be in the RH/inside lane,

I didn’t explicitly say you were I was giving examples I’ve seen. As others have said the video looks like a spiral roundabout, difficult to tell and also as imnotverygood says bad positioning/line. If it is a spiral and the driver had been caught in the wrong lane in heavy traffic better positioning and a right turn signal could have prevented the accident. I’ve had similar happen on a spiral roundabout with 3 lanes
L turn only
L turn or SA
SA/R
Heavy traffic, me in middle lane turning left (indicating), driver in left lane slightly behind me accelerated passed as I started to exit, we “clipped”. He buggered off and no real damage so the point did not get argued.

It is impossible to tell from the desciption whether you misjudged it or the m/c tries something outrageous at speed.

That probably reflects the fact that I don’t know myself.

I would only say that IMHO the onus is still on you to assess the speed of any vehicle when entering the roundabout.

Agreed.

I suspect the most likely explanation is that I’m used to the speed that cars come round that RAB at (I use it every day that I drive to work) so seeing those two come round the corner as I neared the line I knew from previous experience I’d have plenty of time without properly considering that one was a bike and could accelerate a lot faster* off the corner than the cars do.

In other words, instead of looking properly at his speed and considering his vehicle, I took the subconscious shortcut of going “they are only on the top corner I have loads of time”.

(* FWIW I wasn’t aware of hard revving and I don’t think he was going too fast. And regardless it is still up to me to avoid hitting him)

Seems to me (having skipped most of the thread):

1) bike would never have indicated left from the point at which Graham saw it – if it had been indicating the assumption would be that it was coming off at the exit before Graham and just overtaking the other car on the exit

2) In hindsight, Graham wouldn’t have pulled out, as he now knows how hard the bike was psuhing (either just accelerated hard or maybe had been pushing hard as it came round – I suppose the lean of the bike might have given a hint there

3) six of one and, err, three of the other IMO – Graham “shouldn’t” have pulled out but also the biker must’ve been shifting

A related thing happens to me very often on my way home. I turn right (3rd) at a 2-lane roundabout a bit smaller than that. Very often a couple of cars will pull out from the LH lane of the 1st entrance as I approach (obviously I’m not intimidating enough in my people carrier).

If they’re going off at their 1st exit then they’re out of my way but they often take their 2nd (my) exit which forces me to stay in the outside lane, rag the arse off my mowtah and pass ’em before the single lane exit. I wonder if some of them’re thinking what Graham’s thinking, except they’re wrong and I’m not coming off to their left

You might suggest I slow and pull in behind them but there’s generally another car or two who’ve followed them out preventing me from doing so – and I wouldn’t be able to give ’em the bird as I go by on my 2 wheels 😉
I’m beginning to wonder if I should NOT indicate right as I enter the roundabout so that they stay where they are

I’ve had similar happen on a spiral roundabout with 3 lanes

Plenty of spirals round this way, with traffic lights on them, and almost every day I see someone sweep across the clearly marked lanes as if they didn’t exist. 🙁

In hindsight, Graham wouldn’t have pulled out, as he now knows how hard the bike was psuhing..

Yep – I think that’s the main lesson for me today.

Next time I see a m/c on a RAB I’ll be aware I have less knowledge of them and be more cautious about assessing their speed.

‘Roundabouts with traffic lights’ aren’t roundabouts, they’re a series of light controlled junctions. You are supposed to treat each one individually and move across left as appropriate …
Problem is, not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet … 😉

Bad motorcyclist – no clear indication of intent and too much reliance on power and acceleration to get him clear. Busy roundabouts are not really the place to be pulling a fast one, as other drivers have multiple vehicles to assess, so there’s more chance they’ll misinterpret.

OP should probably ‘expect the unexpected’ though, especially where mbikes are concerned.

LH lane is fine for second exit on a five exit roundabout, and if I saw anyone indicating right from the LH lane on that roundabout, I’d assume they were either 80 or an idiot and give them extra room accordingly.

I will just back up molgrips on how hideous the Gabalfa interchange is

When looking at those Streetview pictures, they are taken on two different days. On one, the sign for Roath pointing down Whitchurch Road is there, on the other it’s been replaced by a temporary sign.. told you it was always getting knocked over!

PS have any of you lot ever driven on the Peripherique in Paris?

molgrips – Member

PS have any of you lot ever driven on the Peripherique in Paris?

No.
How do you like your eggs in the morning; with a kiss?

PS have any of you lot ever driven on the Peripherique in Paris?

… it’s very much like making love to a beautiful woman 😉

Mols, you should take your caravan round there

molgrips – Member

PS have any of you lot ever driven on the Peripherique in Paris?

Yes, although it was quite tame in comparison with some places on other continents….