On Ch4 now: Phil Spencer – Find Me a Home. £900 odd quid month for council flat full of cockroaches for a working couple. Can’t get private tenancy cos one’s on a 0 hours contract. In Southwark a single mum, full time carer for child, can’t get a tenancy due to being on benefits. I feel physically sick. Both because it’s only a bit of bad luck and my partner and I, friends and colleagues could end up in a similar situation and out of anger at how these people are treated by a **** up system. They’re doing everything right.

The selfish part of me says “shit, better save more for a proper deposit on your own property”, which might be possible on my part of the country with some help from family. But it’s nowhere near possible for so many people now and even though rent prices have stalled, they’re still going up in the long term and could still balloon in previously cheap parts of the country as people leave the bigger cities in hope of an affordable life. There needs to be rent caps now and a proper national social housing building program so that everyone can feel that if things don’t go perfectly for them they can still afford somewhere proper if they do things right, that allows them a decent standard of living. Some people ( I hope the number is rapidly decreasing ) still believe that if you ‘do things right’, ‘live within your means’, etc you can have a reasonable standard of living and that anything else is the result of fecklessness. It’s bollox. I knew all this already as I left London for associated reasons to accept much lower salary elsewhere but I’ve managed to ignore it as much as possible since. It’s **** disgusting that a family with a combined income of £40k a year have to live with rats and cockroaches and choose because of 0 hours contracts, the failure to build adequate numbers of council houses and successive governments allowing investors to buy properties to rent out extortionately, fail to maintain due to lack of regulation and competition and sit on as investments.

We would all end up like them if we are not careful.

You cannot blame the system because the system is trying to accommodate everyone from all over the world. Govt wants to be kind to the world then they need to find them a place to live.

You cannot blame private rental or owner because it’s all about demand and supply, no two ways about it.

Increase population increase housing pressure means building on green belt.

Everyone keeps demanding the govt to build new homes … where? Of course the green belt.

Also since most families have very few children why are there lack of housing? Who got them? 😯

Whoops

sb88 – Member
There needs to be rent caps now and a proper national social housing building program so that everyone can feel that if things don’t go perfectly for them they can still afford somewhere proper if they do things right, that allows them a decent standard of living.

No. Absolutely wrong approach. Everyone will demand to have one coz they consider that their rights.

Some people ( I hope the number is rapidly decreasing ) still believe that if you ‘do things right’, ‘live within your means’, etc you can have a reasonable standard of living and that anything else is the result of fecklessness.

If they have put in the hard work and live within their means, then they are entitled to feel as they like.

I knew all this already as I left London for associated reasons to accept much lower salary elsewhere but I’ve managed to ignore it as much as possible since.

There you go. You take the courage to move away others insist on staying and suffer.

It’s **** disgusting that a family with a combined income of £40k a year have to live with rats and cockroaches and choose because of 0 hours contracts, the failure to build adequate numbers of council houses and successive governments allowing investors to buy properties to rent out extortionately, fail to maintain due to lack of regulation and competition and sit on as investments.

Building more council houses is not the solution nor blaming the govt etc.

Just move away from that region like you.

edit: … want to be like Hong Kong? 😯

You think supply and demand without regulation works? Good joke.

sb88 – Member
You think supply and demand without regulation works? Good joke.

Land space is not elastic. It will only get harder and harder as the population increase.

You need to think Hong Kong, Tokyo and Shanghai coz you/we are heading that way.

You want to build council houses that are 30 or 40 stories high … like Hong Kong, even that is not enough because mainland Chinese people want to go to live in Hong Kong …

You need to create Judge Dredd mega city style housing blocks.

All this in addition to lifestyle change. Meaning that grown up children stay with their parents longer like those in the far east.

You’re a bell piece mate. One of the reasons other places are cheaper is that there are fewer jobs available and pay is lower. My life hasn’t been easier since leaving London. I have a couple months leeway before eviction would loom if I was jobless and a bit more space. In exchange for lining in an area with a far fewer jobs available. People are in a bind where they need to stay where the work is but the living costs in those areas are increasingly unaffordable. Sayimg “It’s supply and demand” is 1. False: when demand outstrips a supply by a certain ratio, especially in essential goods, the quality of the product suffers as owners/producers have no incentive to improve the product/service 2. Lacking in compassion for people who have done nothing different but are in less fortunate circumstances than others. If a person’s landlord is the same age as them and doesn’t own the house through their own graft, but parental assistance, that’s one thing. We know it happens, and we accept it (for some reason). If that landlord has no incentive to keep the property well looked after however for a given price, due to a lack of competition or regulation (rent caps or fines), that is not ‘fair play’ as you imply, and is not how demand and supply is supposed to work. It’s a situation where people have no choice but to accept poor standards of living. Surely demand and supply is part of the free market, in which people are supposed to have the choice to reject inadequate offers, not accept cockroaches?

You also seem to fail to recognise how it works – people are leaving London and moving to cheaper areas. Your magic supply and demand means those areas get more expensive too, without the economic development and investment that has provided the number of jobs that London and other big cities offer.

I am fully aware that land space is finite. You want to blame immigration? Fine. Even if it were the problem you imply, rather than the tax-revenue-providing, cheap labour providing, high-skills providing thing that it actually is, and even if we ended or reduced net immigration, what would you suggest we do when the population does inevitably increase, unless you fancy a China-style cap on children, which will do nothing to provide the carers people need as they live into their feeble late nineties? The population is going to increase to a point of national and world crisis, immigration or not. In the meantime, in the absence of fertility licenses, we have the question of how to make this slow march as bearable as possible. Yes, the green belts will need to be built on, as much as I would love to preserve our green spaces and countryside and reflect on this whenever I’m out my bike. But there are also tonnes of unused buildings and land in built up urban areas which could be used for housing if they weren’t owned by a complexity of faceless international investment groups.

sb88 – Member
1. False: when demand outstrips a supply by a certain ratio, especially in essential goods, the quality of the product suffers as owners/producers have no incentive to improve the product/service

We are talking about land and housing, both of which are limited. It is inevitable regardless of how much intervention you do, coz essential goods can never be enough.

2. Lacking in compassion for people who have done nothing different but are in less fortunate circumstances than others.

Compassion has nothing to do with it. Everyone is in the same situation of having to make a living or else go homeless. It is the reality.

If a person’s landlord is the same age as them and doesn’t own the house through their own graft, but parental assistance, that’s one thing. We know it happens, and we accept it (for some reason).

Unless their parents or the landlord robbed or acquired the property by illegal means nobody can judge them. You don’t know what they have been through …

If that landlord has no incentive to keep the property well looked after however for a given price, due to a lack of competition or regulation (rent caps or fines), that is not ‘fair play’ as you imply, and is not how demand and supply is supposed to work.

You don’t have to insist on renting or living in that property. If everyone walks away they will learn, coz money talks.

It’s a situation where people have no choice but to accept poor standards of living. Surely demand and supply is part of the free market, in which people are supposed to have the choice to reject inadequate offers, not accept cockroaches?

There is always a choice but perhaps the choice might not be up to your standard.

You made your choice by moving away didn’t you?

sb88 – Member
I am fully aware that land space is finite. You want to blame immigration?

Population not immigration. You need to house everyone coz that’s the reality. You need to decide how to deal with population increase.

Yes, the green belts will need to be built on, as much as I would love to preserve our green spaces and countryside and reflect on this whenever I’m out my bike.

Everyone’s mental health will suffer without green spaces. Countries like Hong Kong and Singapore know that very well.

But there are also tonnes of unused buildings and land in built up urban areas which could be used for housing if they weren’t owned by a complexity of faceless international investment groups.

That’s a balancing act that requires delicate touch. Scare away the investors you decrease job prospect, let them in freely you have difficulty paying rent. A balancing act …

edit: the community living is the only sane way to live in if one cannot afford space …

Countries like Hong Kong and Singapore know that very well.

Of course they do. They are 10-20 times as densely populated as the uk.

Listen, and understand. That Chewkw is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are confused

I don’t know how to do your fancy quote boxes but:

1. ” Everyone is in the same situation of having to make a living or else go homeless”.
My point is that some people ARE making a living, living frugally and AND going homeless, using food banks etc. I haven’t once mentioned people who aren’t working – we’re both in agreement that people should have to work for a standard of living. You have to accept, however, that this isn’t currently happening for some people. You can’t automatically apply the logic that if someone is not making ends meet, they’re not ‘living within their means’ – this only works in a system where living within one’s means is guaranteed to pay off. It isn’t, for many. I don’t know why you find this hard to accept – I’ve not suggested increasing your taxes to pay for these people’s lives to improve. I’ve merely implied that their lives might be improved through regulation such as rent caps and fines and that housebuilding/improvement programs (not necessarily in presently green areas) would provide greater competition for rental prices. If you feel regulation is inherently bad then I’m flogging a dead horse. Regulation is another word for ‘standards’. Regulation is how we prevent things like the Grenfell Tower disaster, how we stop you getting poisoned by the Ginsters Scotch egg you munch in a jam on the motorway and how we make sure people in wheelchairs and with prams can get on buses.

2. “nobody can judge them. You don’t know what they have been through …”
Laughable. You apply this to the beneficiaries of inherited wealth but your attitude implies not to others less fortunate. Surely the very same logic applies to people who end up in difficult circumstances where they might need some support from society/the state in terms of benefits or regulation? Two people aged 20, both, for example, social workers, bar managers, secretaries (i.e. ordinary, hardworking people) could each have their parents die in a car crash. One could be left with £200k which they invest in property. One could be left with nothing, or even debts to clear up. Neither individual is to blame for or to credit with the state of their parents’ final assets.
But apparently ‘Everyone is in the same situation’ and ‘compassion has nothing to do with it’. Sure. I’ve got compassion for both – their parents got mangled – but in the long run, I’ve got continued compassion for the latter individual.

3. “You don’t have to insist on renting or living in that property. If everyone walks away they will learn, coz money talks”. Hah! That might work in a record market where you can express some interest at £9 for a record, pull a face, make as if to walk away and then hope they say ‘ok, £7’. What if people are already living somewhere and prices are going up all around them at a faster rate than their wages? Where do you suggest people go? If you have a job in location A and live 8 miles from there, but your rent is too high, making it difficult for you to live to decent standard, and the only cheaper properties are 15 miles from your work, meaning you need to take 3 buses instead of the previous one, is that a choice or a forced decision?
I’m incredulous at your use of the word ‘insist‘. It conjours up images of a working couple with a toddler viewing a 1 bed private rental flat with damp which is still more than they can really afford, with no prospect of ever saving for a deposit of their own, saying, ‘We simply must take it. We insist!”.
Again, demand and supply is fine, if walking away is a liable option. It often isn’t.

4. “perhaps the choice might not be up to your standard”. Would you pay £900+ per month to live in a flat full of cockroaches and rats, with no other options as private rents for miles around are double that? Myself and many others have relatively low standards. People don’t demand luxury: they ought to expect, though, the absence of deprivation – e.g. the absence of damp causing breathing difficulties and eye infections.

5. “You made your choice by moving away didn’t you?” Piss off mate. I would consider myself relatively fortunate, but having to move to another part of the country, moving my partner 200 miles from family, despite us both working 55+ hours a week just to afford sub-standard accommodation was not a reasonable choice to have made. We try to kid ourselves it was a ‘lifestyle choice’ but any real choice would have involved staying being an affordable option.

6. “That’s a balancing act that requires delicate touch.” Agreed. It’s out of balance and not being ‘touched’ at all.

7. “Scare away the investors you decrease job prospect”. There’s a difference between (A) people investing in a development which will also benefit the population by providing homes and jobs in building it, which involves them transparently putting up some of the initial costs for future returns, and (B) people adding disused property and land to their investment portfolios and sitting on them until for indefinite periods, which provides no jobs and benefits only them.

8. “Population not immigration. You need to house everyone coz that’s the reality.” We agree then!? Let’s do it!

9. “Everyone’s mental health will suffer without green spaces”. Sure. Completely agree. Lots of people ALREADY suffer without green spaces. What you mean is ‘people who already live in/near green spaces will suffer in the same way as lots of other people already do’. We do bugger all to help people from the inner city access and appreciate green spaces. Programs aimed at celebrating cities’ outdoor potential focus on tourism rather than the existing population.
People also develop depression, anxiety and kill themselves / die in fires due to sub-standard housing.

10. “Countries like Hong Kong and Singapore know that very well”. In 2013 there were an average of 413 people per square km in England – the most densely populated country in the UK. In 2014 Hong Kong’s population density was at 6,690 people per square km. In Singapore, there are currently 7,987 people per square km. Not even relevant.

11. Are you what I believe is known as a ‘troll’? If so, cheers – you’ve motivated me to attend the next lefty liberal meeting I can find and get a Billy Bragg tattoo.

11. Are you what I believe is known as a ‘troll’? If so, cheers – you’ve motivated me to attend the next lefty liberal meeting I can find and get a Billy Bragg tattoo.

That is a response totally incapable of accepting alternative view(s).

Whatever makes you happy do it, save the world or start a revolution etc do it, nobody will call you a troll or see you differently.

sb88: chewkw is a troll.
Pretends he’s a semi retarded simpleton from Borneo but struggles to maintain his online persona.
Best ignored, he doesn’t have the wit to be amusing.

sbob – Member
sb88: chewkw is a troll.
Pretends he’s a semi retarded simpleton from Borneo but struggles to maintain his online persona.
Best ignored, he doesn’t have the wit to be amusing.

Have you deliberately joined this thread just to label me that way?
In fact are you allowed to use such term to describe people?
Where is your discussion on the topic?
Where are your views on the matter of housing? 😯

people are leaving London and moving to cheaper areas. Your magic supply and demand means those areas get more expensive too

£900pm for a cockroach infested hovel?

Not in the north, we’re civilised. 😀

Move to York – even on minimumum wage two people will take home £2300 a month and you can rent a 2 bed terrace for 650 a month within walking distance of city centre and east coast mainline

Lots of much better paid jobs in york than mimimum wage.

I saw it last night, it made me feel very grateful for what I have and reminded me that a lot of us are not too many bits of bad luck away from being there.

I wont pretend to have a solution, I don’t have enough facts but I know it wont be an easy problem to solve.

I suspect no matter how fast social housing is built/acquired, it will never keep up with demand.

Now that houses are 20% cheaper for foreign buyers I don’t see anything changing soon.
As long as Nigel gets his blue passport it’s all ok.