I don’t like Apple’s approach…

You don’t know what it is! You don’t use their products, haven’t for twenty years! How long is twenty years in terms of computer development? You rely on here-say* and “fanboys” to arrive at an opinion. You may not say that macOS is rubbish, but you make an abundance of comparative counterpoints when you have no comparative experience.

*not the band, but probably might as well be.

I don’t like Apple’s approach…

You don’t know what it is!

That’s a bit disingenuous, everybody knows Apples approach.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XSC_UG5_kU[/video]

You don’t know what it is!

From what I understand:

It’s a more protective approach. So their OS only goes on their hardware. Third party component support is somewhat limited, and all drivers etc have to be approved. I think all their apps in the iOS store also have to be approved.

This has the advantage of removing the dross apps and drivers, but it pushes up costs and reduces choice. And arguably limits innovation to just Apple innovations.

Is any of that wrong?

binners – Member
It’s fair to say that right from day one she’s absolutely hated the thing. With a passion! For all the reasons listed by various people already. It gets sworn at quite a lot. Mainly as it tries to update its crap agricultural operating system what seems like every half hour.

So OSX is better cause your missus can’t operate windows? 😆

@molgrips – pretty much it except for the innovation bit – Apple have a history of acquisition as well. Apple use a limited selection of components so have fewer integration problems to deal with. I’m always amazed at Windows managing to run at all with the number of permutations of hardware that are around.

The Apple approach of pre-validation and testing means (or should mean) that there are fewer problems and bugs once the product gets to the consumer which contrasts with the MS approach where the consumer tends to be the tester.

Depending on what you want a computer for, any of the three main OSes will fine and more than up to the job. I use Mac at home and Linux at work, my last employer used Linux and Windows. My (nearly) eight year old iMac has had three OS updates but is still as fast and stable as when I got it. Yes I have to wait if I’m transcoding video or doing video work actually but it’s usually a matter of setting the task going then going and doing something else while it gets on with it. If I didn’t want to wait or it was my job then I’d get a much, much more powerful computer but for the occasional editing and uploading to Vimeo it’s fine.

Indeed.

The Windows model means you CAN buy a laptop for £200. But remember, it’s still a £200 laptop and it’s not going to compete with a £900 laptop. But the fact that a £200 laptop exists at all is good news for the people who only have £200.

Apple have certainly driven innovation themselves. But Microsoft have brought technology to more people.

pretty much it except for the innovation bit – Apple have a history of acquisition as well.

But – Apple choose what they want to acquire. They have said for example no touchscreens on Macbooks, so it’s not happening. Whereas Microsoft let it happen – for years it was the manufacturers who were trying it out and investing, and MS responded by creating touch-friendly OS.

There is a greater variety of devices on offer with Windows, for sure.

True, remember before MS brought in their UI rules? Every application did things in their own way – F3 was help in WordPerfect IIRC.

When my iMac failed to recognize my ipod Photo, and then they upgraded to OSX, making my iMac redundant at a stroke, and then the power pack died, I moved to PC’s. This from an original Macintosh owner.

Nowadays there isn’t a lot in it, but Teen1 runs a refurbished i5 Lenovo X230 with 256GB SSD and 16GB of ram for £300. This is a fantastic machine. I also am very taken with the Surface. That is an area where Microsoft are not going to fail. If I was Apple, I’d be worried.

I do own an ipod mini 4, but that lives on the fridge door to Facetime my sister’s children, run Sonos, and run the Strava app that won’t run on my Blackberry 10.

Actually I don’t remember that far back 🙂

Saw some gorgeous Windows laptops in a shop here in Basel. Choice can be good. But then again being in Switzerland the shop was full of top drawer posh kit.

I also am very taken with the Surface. That is an area where Microsoft are not going to fail. If I was Apple, I’d be worried.

Yes. MS have really shaken things up with their line of kit. There’s nothing else like it. Well – there is, a Samsung one, and it’s Windows. Nothing like it in the Mac world. And the fact that Windows has converged on tablets and laptops, so the same apps can be installed is a significant plus, and something Apple are nowhere near.

@molgrips I suspect if you look at Surface sales vs iPad Pro it will tell you which the customers prefer.

A 5yr old Mac is worth 50% of what you paid for it (probably more). A 5yr old PC/laptop is worth zero or it’s stopped working.

Tis true, you pay double for it in the first place mind. You are aware Macs are the same hardware in a different box right? Are you purely talking about the operating system? A few clicks and you can wipe it to a freshly installed state with Windows 10.

A 5 year old PC will likely have an i3/5/7 in it, chuck in a new graphics card, SSD and memory and it’s better than new.

molgrips I suspect if you look at Surface sales vs iPad Pro it will tell you which the customers prefer.

Now there’s a fanboy talking 🙂

I also am very taken with the Surface. That is an area where Microsoft are not going to fail. If I was Apple, I’d be worried.

yeah… I bet they’re really, really, really worried

Molls – we’ve had a whole thread, which you started, to go over why the sum total of no-one is going to switch from Macs to those gimmicky Surface things. On the positive side, you’ll be able to buy yourself one in 6 months time, for next to nothing, when they shift all the warehouses full of them, that are sat round gathering dust.

You’re planning on buying one, right?

And the fact that Windows has converged on tablets and laptops, so the same apps can be installed is a significant plus, and something Apple are nowhere near.

Erm…. You can use all the Creative Suite Apps on any Mac device with all your files synced via the cloud. it couldn’t conceivably be any easier. It works brilliantly. Do you actually know anything about how Adobe software works on a Mac? It certainly doesn’t sound like it.

Oh… the new Mac is wizzy fast and Mrs Binners is an extremely happy bunny, as she says she no longer has to spend her days feeling like this about the horrible PC…

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc[/video]

😀

binners – Member

Molls – we’ve had a whole thread, which you started, to go over why the sum total of no-one is going to switch from Macs to those gimmicky Surface things. On the positive side, you’ll be able to buy yourself one in 6 months time, for next to nothing, when they shift all the warehouses full of them, that are sat round gathering dust.

You’re planning on buying one, right?

I think you’re getting the Surface 4

confused with that twiddly screen ‘designer’ thing with the puck mouse – just googled the name because I couldn’t remember – Surface Studio….

I don’t think they’re the same thing.

They aren’t, but let binners shout and swear about bollocks. He enjoys it.

You’re planning on buying one, right?

No, cos unlike Mac users I don’t like to spunk far too much cash on image.

No I don’t think he is. We’ve all spent years hearing about the latest geatest Windows thing which a year kater we are told was a bit cr@p but the improved version however … this is absolutely the case with the Surface too

A 5yr old Mac is worth 50% of what you paid for it (probably more). A 5yr old PC/laptop is worth zero or it’s stopped working.

My eight year old PC laptop is doing just fine, thanks. WGAF about resale value? I’ve had computers longer than I’ve had pants, and I think the last one I sold was an Atari ST.

that’s pretty much you done with ever arguing about it again.

And yet, the Mac fanboys trot out the same hoary old shite about PCs every time this question crops up, based on their poor experience with Windows 95.

I suspect if you look at Surface sales vs iPad Pro it will tell you which the customers prefer.

I suspect if you look at Surface sales vs iPad Pro it will tell you which the customers think looks prettiest.

Blimey thats not great, was it an ssd or an ssd hybrid?

A 5yr old Mac is worth 50% of what you paid for it (probably more). A 5yr old PC/laptop is worth zero or it’s stopped working

Sure it is, when the cables are all frayed from having no proper strain relief, the wifi is intermittent from the broken cables (unrepairable) in the hinge, the (non replaceable) battery is donald ducked, the plamrest is cracked, etc etc 😆

Hah. Most normal laptops are easy to repair.

We’ve all spent years hearing about the latest geatest Windows thing which a year kater we are told was a bit cr@p

We have? Like what?

I’ve got a Macbook I use for work, sadly I can’t compare the boot time as it has to run Bootcamp, because there’s loads of software that doesn’t run on OSX. Everything is super friendly, until you have to do something complicated in a command window and it’s instantly just back to awkward shonky Linux. Even trivial stuff like going to the root of your hard drive is needlessly awkward and hidden away, without remembering tons of key combinations.

I only have to use it because Apple make a point of not letting people build iOS games on Windows. Literally the only reason I touch it is because Apple give me no other options.

I also have an XPS 13 (booted in 17 seconds, after sitting on the Dell logo for about 6-7) and a Surface Pro 2 (booted in 5-6 seconds, no POST screen, it’s speedy and 3 years old!).

I even tried using my Macbook for Zwift recently, as it’s a 15″ jobby. Sadly the wifi was inexplicably rubbish, compared to every other device in the house.

Looks like Apple might be edging it, as my current i5 PC is slowly grinding to a halt and causing lots of problems

Can anyone explain why I can’t buy an iMac with 16gb of ram though, as it looks like there might be 2 purchases pending I.e. iMac for home/own business and MacBook for work…

On some iMac’s you can still user upgrade the ram easily. So perhaps they don’t offer 16 just 8 or 32 ? What model are you looking at (Kryton had a thread recently btw)

@Molgrips I think Surface 1 is a good example no ?

@Cougar resale value you should factor into the cost of ownership.

Why? Who the hell sells used computers?

Apparently the SurfaceBooks are optomised really well for the Adobe Creative Suite

Well even the office fanbois looked shocked at the price rises for old tech this year. Normally a new release would mean some boxes appearing but not this year. Another developer who’s been on mac for years picked up a cheap win 10 laptop for some Windows software he was using and was really impressed by win 10 out the box.

For the op cc works well on Windows, a surface pro or Dell xps is a better spec than the best mac book for 3/4 of the price with full touch screen and it will take a replacement drive etc. It will also have a normal USB port.

Mac at home, PC at work, no problems. But got a cheap Lenovo laptop for another place and after a few months I just gave up. Mac keep some of their kudos by just not letting shit like that out of the factory door.

But MacBooks with no legacy USB or SD card? I think, like the iPhone 7 headphone jack issue this is an own goal, not a paradigm shift…

In a case of interesting timing I’ve been told by corporate IT that my 4yo Dell LT is too old and needs replacing. It’s a pity as I’ve enjoyed it, especially as I had it specced to the max.

Although I have seen it yet, there is a list coming from which I’ll be able to choose a Windows 10 LT, Surface or MacBook Air.

Now, I’m enjoying my iMac AND my windows LT displayed on it using Remote Desktop. I’m tempted by the MacBook but curiously keen on a Surface. Both the Surface and the MacBook would probably usurp my iPad mini i use for web browsing / are at home as they aren’t as cumbersome.

Reading this thread it all seems much of a muchness though?

Why? Who the hell sells used computers?

I once sold a 3 year old MacBook Pro on eBay for over £900. A lovely Finnish girl came and picked it up and paid cash. And then asked me out and did sex with me and stuff. I love my macs.

For those selling your computers are you not worried about data security or are you removing the hard drive first?

I think for the first time in over 15 years MS are now the better machines than Apples. The new macbookpro seems to have pretty bad right ups, just at a time when MS stuff is finally working well and is innovative.

In terms of hardware reliability (i.e. mainboard or cpu failure) I’ve had to sort out a significant quantity more Apple products than I have PC laptops.

Lead-free solder in BGA mounted components = a pain.

Should a MacBook not be under Apple Care and it’s diagnosed as the logic board, the whole thing has to be replaced as the cpu & gpu are built into the board. So it invariably costs more to fix, or, upgrade to a newer model.

Should a PC laptop break in the same sort of way, it’s very common for the cpu/gpu to be replaceable (and to that end, upgradable). A replacement board is also usually cheaper too.

In saying this, get a Mac* and get it covered under warranty, stunning screen quality, loads and loads of battery life, really nice OS that’s intuitive and faster than Windows 10 (better UEFI integration I believe). My next laptop will be a MacBook Pro.

The biggest problem I have with Apple is their preposterous manner in which they handle significant changes to hardware with limited consideration for those who use older kit, by design forcing the hand of the user to ‘upgrade’ to newer equipment should they wish to use some new fangled kit, or, buy a dongle type product.

Or, you could go a bit ‘out there’ and build yourself a Hackintosh which means you can have easy hardware upgrades, typically greater standardisation for the hardware platform too and an awesome OS.

IMO, buy a MacBook Pro. Get Apple Care.

i sold a bbc b for 40 quid. does this count?

Mt windows Laptops generally last long enough that it’s not worth selling them, who wants 7/8 year old hardware anyway.

I bought a Dell outlet XPS 17″ laptop a few years back, kept it for a couple of years then ebayed it at a profit. Bought and sold around the £500 sort of mark.

Only sold as I was using my desktop for everything.

Apple stuff is fine, if you know exactly what you want to use it for. It just seems to fit an odd middleground, if I wanted something super fast, simple, safe Id get a Chromebook. If i wanted something productive, supports everything, powerful, Id get a PC.

The Surface tablets in particular are lovely bits of kit, they work like very high end graphics tablets yet can run everything you’d run on laptop. Apple just dont offer that yet. iPad Pro was so ridiculously priced for what is still effectively a mobile device.

It depends on your work @Toasty. My workflow is quicker using Mac OS, having used Windows 10 from the day of release, various Linux distributions and now Mac.

I’d really like one of the Surface machines, but need a *nix environment.

Well.. Microsoft really are upping their game in all areas. Just got the designer keyboard and mouse set, it’s gorgeous. The battery covers are magnetic and snick on and off beautifully; instead of spring battery terminals they’ve got neat spring loaded studs. Flashy.

An Apple user who doesn’t need convincing of the benefits here. I held out for the launch of the new MBP, was a little underwhelmed at what was offered, but mainly felt utterly and completely taken for a ride by the price. So I baulked and in a fit of madness took a gamble on a Dell XPS running Windows 10. Wow. Just wow. 512SSD, i7 and a 4k touchscreen. It flies and is a thing of beauty every bit as well made as an MBP in my opinion….no…the gorgeous soft touch carbon fibre palm rest is better (even if it does show fingerprints). Biggest surprise of all is that I love W10 (can’t believe I’m saying this) and Office 365 which integrates beautifully with Word and Powerpoint etc on my iPhone/iPads. All my iPhone photos upload automatically to the W10 photos as they would on a Mac. OneDrive works every bit as well as iCloud. Brilliant laptop, I have to say. No downsides or regrets so far and, whilst an expensive machine, is considerably less than the new MBP (which, lets be honest is priced at a nonsensical premium – my XPS is a work tool as well btw).
If there is a downside, I’d expect it to be Dell’s customer service vs Apple but not had cause to test that out yet.
No regrets here with either XPS, Office 365 or W10….and I never thought I’d be saying that 6 months ago (last vesion of Windows I tried was 7 prior to this)

Hmm XPS is very tempting – 2x as fast with 4x as big SSD for £200 less than ‘equivalent’ MacBook. Good to hear a positive review.

Hmmm. interesting. Of course, my decision is work based but even currently using W7 I dont have any issues with Onedrive, office, or my Dell LT which even though is “out of support” with our IT at 16gm RAM and a 512GB SSD has performed brilliantly over the 4 years I’ve had it. As I’m not paying for it its purely a performance and longevity based decision.

I am tempted to stay windows for the Connectivity in the LT. Does anyone here use a Macbook / Air in my role – travelling Salesman – and can relate? My use is eserntially portable. As before I’m beginning to feel I should choose the lightest most flexible machine regardless of OS, bearing in mind at home I’ll use it on my imac via remote desktop anyway.

Another important point about XPS is that because the 15″ screen is “borderless” without a bezel running around the edge, as well as being thin, the size is overall quite small whilst retaining 15″ screen (if that makes sense). It also has a sensible selection of ports, so none of the dongle nonsense alluded to earlier. I can see Mac’s benefit of thunderbolt only in years to come, but for the time being, that would be an irritation and nuisance for me (and added expense). Mine was nearer £600 cheaper than “equivalent” new MBP (that’s before getting 20% discount on Dell and 5% discount on MBP).
That all said, I totally get why the graphics boys earlier use MBPs. Just pointing out my experiences of XPS, Office 365 and W10.

I’m beginning to feel I should choose the lightest most flexible machine regardless of OS, bearing in mind at home I’ll use it on my imac via remote desktop anyway.

I use Parallels VM and have Windows 10 on a desktop on my MBP. It swipes between operating systems with the same ease as swiping between apps. A laptop with more or less full Apple and Microsoft integration.