total cost of motoring to society is bigger than the fuel tax whingers believe

why single out cars for this treatment, isn't it true of almost *everything* in society, food, white goods, gadgets, even bicycle etc.. they all need energy, fuel and transport at some point along the line.

maybe we'll see some kind of reverse globalisation eventually??

CHB – the 50P a mile from the RAC is not leasing – thats buying a car from new, dealer servicing it and replacing after 3 yrs. You can reduce that cost of course by buying second-hand so depreciation is less and having a smaller car but you are forgetting VED, insurance and servicing costs which are at least few hundred a year 30 P a miles say? Even then the journey above is £162 total ( not additional) cost.

Of course your family can live without a car as many do. – you just need to build that into your life. I don't own a car and it hardly compromises me. The worst bit is begging lifts to join pals at Glentress – otherwise I cycle, use public transport and taxi and hire cars when needed

its about choices you make. You chose a lifestyle that requires a car – I don't. You like most car drivers are underestimating the cost to you of car ownership. Be clear tho – its about choice no need.

When I was a kid my parents did not drive me everywhere ( until we moved out of town) I went to Judo lessons by bike, I walked and I cycled around the town – and 70s Glasgow was more dangerous than any city now

I think private motorists do deserve to be singled out a bit more because of what I see everyday in Edinburgh; thousands of people all in single occupant vehicles each carting around 1-2 tonnes of metal than is strictly necessary all blocking up the roads.
I do have more sympathy for the haulage industry and people that are using vehicles essential to infrastucture.

£55 in petrol? 50 ish MPG???

I get nearer 60mpg on that run – motorway pretty much door to door
It's all the changing of trains etc that p's me off more than anything
There's also usually 2 of us on that run so a bit cheaper each
I do use the train probably 50% of the time but in practice it's always been a lot dearer than the prices you found.

+ if I go on the train – I can't take my bike & get out to the Surrey hills on a Summer evening 🙂

Uplink – are you surprised at the cost and time of the train? Gonna book ahead and get the train next time? Work on the way down and get drunk on the way back?

westkipper – the thing that really gets to me is the commuters – queuing in their cars for an hour to get into Edinburgh and an hour to get back out. Nothing is worth that to me.

Why can't you take your bike on the train?

I agree the book ahead for £110 is tricky – there is a £150 ticket that is more flexible. 2 of you sharing a car changes the sums a lot

I was surprised how comparative it worked out. I was expecting the time to be worse

Uplink – are you surprised at the cost and time of the train? Gonna book ahead and get the train next time? Work on the way down and get drunk on the way back?

I guess we posted at the same time

As I said I do take the train but it's dearer than that – usually book the day before

Uplink – Work on the way down and get drunk on the way back?

Don't get me started on the cost of a beer on the train

Why can't you take your bike on the train?

All the other stuff I have to take starts making it a bit onerous trying to get down the escalator to the tube in Kings X

TandemJeremy, what you need to take into account is the "cost per additional mile" once you accept that you own a car.
My car insurance is fixed unless I do over 15,000 miles. So is VED and MOT. Servicing is also 15k or 12 months. So you see that the cost per extra mile is less than you expect.
Now of course you have to cost up the "car free life" versus the "with car life". Owning a car is an expensive club to join, but once you are in it the extra cost per mile is less than you calculate.

That said, I genuinley crave a society that enables me to share access to my expensive metal box sat on my drive and enable cheap public transport as an alternative. In 2010 it isn't there.

Let me give you an example. We live in Leeds. 300m from the nearest train station that goes straight to Meadowhell shopping centre in Sheffield. for the four of us (2 adults 2 kids) it was approx £15 return on the train and is approx a 50 minute journey. In a car it is 30 mins and costs £7 in petrol (at todays costs). I really want to use public transport. But in most of this country its crap and expensive.

west kipper +1

It would be nice if we had a more pro-active government where it comes to transport. Big tax breaks for companies who make carsharing more possible, heavier promotion of smaller, lighter cars and motorcycles.
I suspect that a large part of the public reluctance to go for this would be linked to the reduction in percieved status.
Turn up to a business meeting in motorcycle leathers, or in a Smartcar and the client may not be as confidence-inspired as if one gets out of a Beemer.
Arriving at work with messed up hair from cycling, or even a bit damp from the rain is seen as 'unprofessional'.
I sure that these are the real reasons why people dont switch to cheaper running vehicles.

west – I think you've just highlighted peripheral issues, the core one being that people on the whole are lazy feckers.

Maybe :-), but even if they aren't, theres lots of ways society tries to make things difficult for those trying to escape the rat-race (or rat-drive, mair like!)

Often we go into London on a Sunday to visit the museums, we could get the train at £50 (2 adults and 1 child) and 2 hours there and 2 hours back – or we could drive the 80 mile round trip and pay £16 to park for the day.

Either way its **** expensive.

Oh, and 2 weekends in a month the trains are buses…

100% its a status thing in the UK and one of the differences in transport here and int he low countries. Here a bike is seen as the poor persons transport. My dutch nephew asked me "where are all the normal cyclists" – this is in Edinburgh where lost of peaple cycle

Turn up for a meeting on your bike in Holland and its not even noticed.

CHB – you are still forgetting some costs. Tyre wear and depreciation and servicing all have a per mile content not per year. Its a choice to use a car not a necessity – be clear about that. You have chosen a lifestyle that requires a car. I know families who live without cars.

Thanks to all for having this debate in a reasonable manner. Normally bu now I would have been called a deluded green nazi 🙂

TJ, yes I have chosen a lifestyle. Why? well to be honest in this country in my part of the world the alternative is non-workable.
It would take me 2h each way to work instead of 40minutes (or 1h23 when I cycle!) and taking the kids to my mums would take 2h as well instead of 15mins in the car.

If you live outside a city centre and have dependants then large areas of the UK (most of it) are crap for using public transport unless you are very time rich/cash poor. You really don't need to be well off for the equation to rule out public transport.

oh… and it's not 100% status. I genuinely would like us to be a less car centered society. But it isn't and to take part in UK society it really helps to have a car (again factor in for me that there is often 4 of us to get from A to B). More cycle lanes, cheap and effective public transport would be great, but its mainly crap.
You are delusioned if you think that everyone can live without a car without being very selective about where they live and how they live.

CHB, I dont think anyone is having a go personally at you. I think that its just crap that modern lifestyle forces people into this situation, even if they dont want to.
I dont currently have a car and my life is absolutely made more difficult as a result.
But I still dont feel that making fuel cheaper is a good thing.
(Edit- now you've just gone and spoiled things with your plea for more cyclelanes, where's my gun? :-))

drive a company car and pay ****'all…pass the cost on to customers and TJ pays muhhhhhhahaaaaahhaaa

220mile commute a day is a bit sh1t though 😥

You polar bear murderer you!

CHB

TJ, yes I have chosen a lifestyle. Why? well to be honest in this country in my part of the world the alternative is non-workable.
It would take me 2h each way to work instead of 40minutes (or 1h23 when I cycle!) and taking the kids to my mums would take 2h as well instead of 15mins in the car.

That is a part of your choice – you do not have to live where you do – you have chosen to live where travelling is inconvenient without a car

TJ, yes I have chosen a lifestyle. Why? well to be honest in this country in my part of the world the alternative is non-workable.
It would take me 2h each way to work instead of 40minutes (or 1h23 when I cycle!) and taking the kids to my mums would take 2h as well instead of 15mins in the car.

That is a part of your choice – you do not have to live where you do – you have chosen to live where travelling is inconvenient without a car

The more specialised your work, the more likely you are to have to move for it. Then your boss tells you that the company is moving offices, whilst your partner's tells her they're also moving, but in the opposite direction. As you may have noticed, there isn't a great deal of choice in the jobs market at the moment. What do you do?

….and at the other end of the scale, even if your in a crap, relatively low paid job like mine you dont have much choice either. Despite being a native Leither, I cant afford to live within 25 miles of Edinburgh. So I HAVE to travel.

zokes, exactly!

've got absolutely no problem with higher taxes for cars once this lovely country of ours manages to provide reliable, frequent, useful public transport.

Well, you could take transport out of the hands of private enterprise for a start.

The more specialised your work, the more likely you are to have to move for it. Then your boss tells you that the company is moving offices, whilst your partner's tells her they're also moving, but in the opposite direction. As you may have noticed, there isn't a great deal of choice in the jobs market at the moment. What do you do?

Wait until there is choice in the jobs market and make the right choice. Excuses, excuses. 😉

Well, you could take transport out of the hands of private enterprise for a start.

Yes, because British Rail was SO much better…

Wait until there is choice in the jobs market and make the right choice. Excuses, excuses.

Oh of course, in the mean time, I'll sit at home on the dole (costing the government money), whilst having the heating and leccy on (polluting) that I wouldn't otherwise had to use if i'd been at work. I see this as a promising strategy 🙄

Make public transport convenient, affordable and pleasant.

Accept that sometimes people NEED to use cars. I travel to work by bike, but I find that towing my caravan really does require a car. (On the other hand, I never fly anywhere). Sometimes I am injured or ill, and use my car. Sometimes my dog is injured or ill and has to be driven to the vet. Sometimes I have to carry big or heavy things.

Look, what we need is a holistic "carbon credit scheme" – cars are by no means the #1 villain. What about farting cows? What about shipping stuff from Korea? What about great big "look at how much I earn houses" with their great big heating bills. What about swimming pools?

See? It's not as simple as demonising car drivers and, frankly, I'm sick of being scapegoated/milked as a convenient cash cow.

I've said it before but the problem is that the government is addicted to fuel duty. If it wasn't then maybe we might have a public transport infrastructure like Holland for example.

The costs of public transport have been allowed to escalate partly because it'll be cheaper to take the car. If rail travel were cheap and accessible then a large chunk of £50bn revenue would be wiped out and the Treasury can't allow that.

The demand for fuel is inelastic, hence the amount of tax can be set at whatever the chancellor likes.