My thoughts are with the families of the two young men murdered.

I can’t quite believe some of the posts on this topic and those of you who are suggesting that this crime was somehow justified even just slightly should be ashamed of yourselves.

If peace is to last in NI then anyone who knows anything about these attacks needs to step up and speak to either the PSNI or the Garda to make sure these criminals are brought to justice asap.

There is no reason why in these enlightened times there needs to be any armed struggle. Both NI & ROI can exist as peaceful democracies within the EU where the rule of law and politcial process should be supported and encouraged.

Rudeboy, kindly just shut the f*** up. You obviously haven’t the first clue what you are talking about, it’s embarrassing and annoying, I don’t understand why you feel the need to comment on something you don’t understand.

The situation in NI is much more complicated than the vast majority of you understand, judging by your posts.

You obviously haven’t the first clue what you are talking about

Of course not.

And you obviously do, because…?

So, come on, Professor; what have I said, that is soooooo wide of the mark?

I am well aware of NI’s very complex and violent history. I do not profess, however, to be any kind of expert, and have not offered an opinion as such.

However, it seems that you would rather that I, or indeed anyone who offers an opinion contrary to your own, ‘shut the f-up’, according to your posts.

That’s enlightened.

RudeBoy

And you obviously do, because…?

Lived in Ulster all my life, good enough for you? Relatives in high places in certain security forces good enough for you? Even so I am only enlightened enough to understand that I understand very little. If as I suspect, the nine o clock news is your is your only frame of reference to ‘the troubles’ then you know NOTHING.

It’s utterly pointless to do anything other than express condolences for the dead – beyond that you’re just embarrassing yourself.

I’m confused. What have I actually said, that has aroused you so much?

I’ve actually tried to offer different explanations, and have given my opinions. Why shoont I?

Now, I might not live in NI, but I’m British. As I pointed out on another thread, actions of Republican ‘activists’ have affected me, in my own home town. The Canary Wharf bomb was one of the biggest on the British Mainland. Innocent people, with no involvement in the politics of NI, were killed and injured. Friends of mine, who lived very close to the actual site, were very shaken up. We helped an elderly Bangladeshi man, who was absolutely terrified, to clear up broken glass from his flat.

That’s a real experience, of the consequences of the actions of a group in conflict with the British Government.

An experience which I’ll never forget.

I’m not trying to apportion blame, other than to say that such actions do not lead to peace; they merely serve to exacerbate and perpetuate the state of fear, hatred and aggression. and to keep people divided, not bring them together.

I am opposed to any actions like this.

As I’ve pointed out, I am open to the idea that this was in fact a military conspiracy, as well as possibly being the work of screwed up, angry young men. And all sorts of possibilities in between. I’m not saying it’s one or the other.

Whoever did this, are murderers, in anyone’s book. And I do see a parallel, with disaffected, angry people in NI, and young people in urban areas of London and other big cities. Very often, violence is as a result of people feeling unempowered, and fearful of others.

But I don’t know the full story. I’ve come on here, posted my thoughts on things, expecting a response, and hpeto gain more understanding of such a terrible event.

All you’ve done is told me to ‘shut the **** up’. You, who by your own admission, probbly know more than me.

So why aren’t you pointing out where I may have got it wrong?

How do you expect people to ‘understand’, if you don’t use your own knowledge and experience, to enlighten others?

FWIW, I’ve had several Irish friends, from all over, and both sides of the ‘divide’. I’ve tried to listen to them, and understand the problems, and admit it is bewildering.

As for commenting, I take it you will no longer be commenting on stuff you know little about, then?

RudeBoy – Member
I’m confused. What have I actually said, that has aroused you so much?

…

RudeBoy

No, but somehow, I doubt it was the work of reasonable, intelligent, enlightened souls who are able to address the issues in more peaceful ways.

More like, angry, embittered, dissafected, ignorant, misguided idiots.

The people you are talking about are probably not angry embittered or disaffected. In all probability they are much more intelligent than you. They are extremely ignorant though.

Same as most people who think it’s a good idea to take Human Life, to achieve a political aim.

You cant just quantify all terrorists/freedom fighters/criminals exactly the same way.

Acts like this are not carried out by those who want Peace. They are carried out by those who feel so impotent, they foolishly think doing something like this gives them some balls.

What does that even mean? (Dont bother explaining)

Not unlike inner-city gang violence in a place like London.

It’s a ‘turf war’. Anyone who tries to use ‘politics’ to in some way justify or legitimise the use of violence, in a time when so much has been done, by so many, to try and achieve a lasting peace, is an enemy of the very peace that ordinary folk want and deserve.

It is completely unlike inner-city gang violence in london. The day when the paratroopers start gunning down unarmed inner city youths – or the day when teenagers from one part of london start blowing up neighbouring estates with 800lb lorry bombs as a means to damage their economy then yes…there might be similarities but until then they are very different things.

I dont see any point in posting anything specific or trying to educate people on here. I would fail anyway, not because of peoples inability to understand, simply because I can’t convey all of the information in any succinct or remotely coherent way – it’s too deep, too complicated, too convoluted and too confusing to be condensed into a post on an mtb forum. Suffice to say, Northern Ireland is still pretty much f***ed up in a myriad of different ways – I personally cant see any silver lining to the cloud for many decades to come.

The people you are talking about are probably not angry embittered or disaffected. In all probability they are much more intelligent than you. They are extremely ignorant though.

Eh? Can somebody help me out here, please?

So, two soldiers were killed by people who are chilled out and peaceful, then? Or those so detached that they were devoid of emotion? Or maybe just someone doing it for a laugh?

Thankfully, it appears I am too stupid to want to blow anyone up.

Gnargnar; wtf are you actually going on about? Seriously?

Go and have a lie down, mate, and don’t get so wound up.

For once I am with RudeBoy,

GNARGNAR – IMHO you are coming across pretty badly, if you have a point then make it. RudeBoy, as stated can only speculate as to the causes/effects but then he is entitled to do that based on his experiences. So, if you are going to tell people to ‘shut up’ and it doesn’t relate to football scores then you need to at least try and have a coherent point.

RudeBoy

Eh? Can somebody help me out here, please?

Your simplistic view of the situation leads you to believe instantly, without any information or context, that the people who murdered those soldiers were unintelligent, unenlightened, monolithic identi-kit bad people.

How does the Omagh bombing factor into your view of dissident republicans? 29 people murdered and nearly 300 injured on British soil, and as yet not one person had been successfully convicted of a single murder. Are the police and the army really so totally incompetent that they cant catch and convict a group of vicious pikey red necks from the bog lands of Louth ?

Or perhaps they are dealing with extremely cunning, highly intelligent, utterly ruthless criminals, whose motivations are actually pretty complex and multilayered.

My point – if I even have one, is that nothing about the situation in Northern Ireland is simple, nothing is black and white, nothing can be neatly summarised within a paragraph, and to do so is most likely very wrong and quite arrogant. That is all.

Is that you happy then S&J?

Actually, yes it is.

Its good to see SF actually say something useful rather than sit on the fence as they did for many years over what were the murders of personnel going about their lawful duties as laid down by a democratically elected government.

On that last point….why is it that none of the mainland political parties put up candidates in NI? Seems very strange to me that the voters over there aren’t directly involved in selecting their government.

Colin, what about the Ulster Unionist/Conservative relationship?

Or dont you get the news or media in haggisland?

druidh – Member
On that last point….why is it that none of the mainland political parties put up candidates in NI? Seems very strange to me that the voters over there aren’t directly involved in selecting their government.

The Ulster Unionists and the Conservatives are basically merging. That’s not the party line for the UUP but give it 15 years or so and they’ll just be the conservative party.

A “relationship”? Why no Conservative/Labour candidates?

Dont be silly, how can a ‘legitimate politician’ compare to a taig who’ll look out for taigs and sort out the huns, or a hun who’ll look out for huns and sort out the taigs.

It’s pure tribal/sectarian politics. Whoever shouts the loudest and does the most scare mongering about the ‘others’ is obviously the one to vote for. Hang on….that’s just politics in general.

GNARGNAR – Member

Dont be silly, how can a ‘legitimate politician’ compare to a taig who’ll look out for taigs, or a hun who’ll look out for huns.

Never been to Airdrie or Coatbridge then?

Cheezuz H. Chrisp.

Gnargnar; chill out. Are you not capable of having a ‘discussion’ with someone?

Right. I’ll make no attempt to ‘understand’ the complexities of the history of the Troubles in NI. Quite frankly, because i don’t actually think you want me to. You seem more concerned with appearing superior to whoever you argue with, regardless of what they actually say.

So; RudeBoy’s stupid, ignorant and pointless view on the recent events:

Two gunmen open fire on a group of British Army soldiers, and two civilians.

Two soldiers are killed, other people injured, including the two pizza delivery guys.

What purpose does this serve? If it is, as is being widely accepted by all sides, the work of ‘dissident Republicans’, then what was the intention here? Just to kill people, to spread fear and hate, or to serve some sort of pseudo-political goal?

Ok so; we know there is a long history of violence, unrest and injustice in NI. And I think only the most foolish would think they are anywhere near at an end.

But so much progress seems to have been made; no longer are there daily reports of shootings, bombings and killings. I suspect there is more unrest than the British Media is reporting, but nowhere near on the scale of the 1970s and 80s.

So what was the point of last nights seemingly senseless killlings? Who is behind this? What are their aims?

Now, we’ve already established that I am an idiot, but as already stated, it appears that such an act is counter productive to the peace process, the future for political reconciliation in NI, and the social and cultural stability of that region.

Notice I jolly well have not commented on the validity or otherwise, of the actions of either ‘side’, here.

And I notice I’m not alone, in condemning the actions of whoever perpetrated such abhorrent acts of violence.

Therefore, considering that this single incident of violence appears to serve no ultimately positive or productive purpose, it strikes me that those involved perhaps aren’t quite as ‘intelligent’ as you suggest. For a start, if you really wanted to kill British Troops, I’m sure there could be more efficient ways; I don’t know, as I have no desire to do so. And I would imagine that these gunmen would have taken considerable risk, to carry out their mission.

As a British Citizen, I would prefer that we all got on. And although there can be no excuse made for the actions of the past, that if there is any chance of some sort of peaceful outcome in the future, then for the sake of future generations, we should be working towards that. Surely, that would be the most ‘intelligent’ course of action?

I dunno. I’m just a thick, stupid **** with no right to speak, apparently…

Sorry. I am pretty sickened and angered by the whole thing. Ordinary people would be content to lead semi normal lives while those on the periphery murder, steal and rape at will without fear. The police do nothing, their hands are tied behind their backs. The politicians do even less and will forever be utterly incapable of seeing past their own greed.

We have ghettos on both sides of the sectarian divide and on both sides of the border, housing estates or whole towns still controlled by whoever is the most vicious and manipulative. Drug dealers, fuel launderers, arms smugglers, pimps, paedophiles human traffickers – every imaginable form of criminality is tolerated and swept under the carpet in order to maintain the facade of peace, all the while millions of pounds are pumped into these areas in the form of so called urban regeneration or youth development schemes – all controlled and divided up between you know who.

And then perversely, these groups are almost necessary to, for want of a better word – police – working class ghettos. And to this end they are tolerated, even encouraged by the communities they leech off. They execute petty drug dealers – the communities applaud them, while all they are doing is cleaning shop.

All the while we have the news watering the ‘conflict’ down to the point where it’s digestible to 4 year olds – accompanied by sound bites from our utterly incompetent, utterly conceited so called politicians .

The problem with Northern Ireland is that there is no single identifiable problem – the whole place is f***ed, totally. It’s utterly corrupt at every level – and everyone who is in a position to do anything about it just merrily plays along as if the whole thing will just go away.

You have the right to speak – I just dont think you have a clue what you’re talking about. It would be like me spouting on inner city gang violence in London. I know nothing, absolutely nothing about it. Other than what I see on the news, which really isnt much, so I wouldnt bother.

You have the right to speak – I just dont think you have a clue what you’re talking about.

That’s all right- you don’t know me.

Actually, I was aware of the problems that exist in parts of NI, of which you speak. I’ve been told this, and more, by those from NI. “I suspect there is more unrest than the British Media is reporting”.

Drug dealers, fuel launderers, arms smugglers, pimps, paedophiles human traffickers

Sounds like many of Britain’s run-down inner-city areas, tbh.

Actually, what you’ve just said ties in quite well with what I said earlier. Comments for which you told me to ‘shut the f-up’.

I appreciate this is a subject that seems very close to the heart and bone, for you. I am not trying to dismiss your views or opinions, merely to add those of someone seeing the situation from outside. As I’ve also said, the Troubles have affected me, and the community in which I live. Maybe not as directly, or in such an extreme way, but the fear of attack felt in London certainly led to people looking over their shoulders, as they now do, in fear of attack from other sources.

See, you’ve actually shed some light on problems faced by people actually living in NI today. something our media seems loathe to do. I’d say that’s a darn sight more useful, in helping people like me to gain an insight into the place and it’s problems, than saying people ‘don’t have a clue’.

As for the ‘intelligence’ of those who carried out last night’s attacks; ruthless they most certainly are, but I’d consider intelligent behaviour that which would look beyond the immediate, and consider the long-term situation. Because surely the current one serves no-one very well.

Oy vey.

GNARGNAR – Don’t mean to patronise but; That’s more like it. Interesting reading.

Im just pissed off. Honestly, if I could recount some of the examples I’ve heard from those on the inside about just how impotent the forces of law and order here are to act then I might be able to make more sense but I cant.

Small wonder when the SAS were deployed here they quickly grew bored of sitting on their arses and took to crossing the border and causing many an IRA man to fall into a river. In a bag. With their heads cut off. Which in turn, when you consider that many saw them as pillars of the community, goes some way to illustrating why their presence here is resented by republicans.

The term dirty war is apt.

These people may not be acting ‘intelligently’ in the context of normal society, but when you consider that the potential rewards for their behaviour can include virtually unlimited wealth, power, authority or freedom to indulge your appetites for sex and violence without repercussion maybe it makes more sense. Maybe not. They aren’t dumb that’s for sure. They are very clever sociopaths.

Who’re we talking about? Political activists, or organised criminals?

I dare say that the people who carried out the killings aren’t quite as smart as those who sent them…

RudeBoy – Member
Who’re we talking about? Political activists, or organised criminals?

Often, but not always they are the same person.

GNARGNAR…you are of course correct is your accusations of ignorance on the part of most of the UK population on the history and myriad complications of the “Troubles”. However, RudeBoy, in fairness to him, displays a fair view on the situation as he sees it from Landan Town – it always troubled me that most people here didn’t care or know a jot about a system of apartheid being practised on their own doorstep for decades (but were eager to march up and down outside the South African embassy) – and how the media (beloved Guardian aside) never reported fairly on the atrocities that were committed by thugs on both sides of the divide as well as the army and the RUC (who colluded with terrorists for decades too!).

RudeBoy (in an uncommon display of mature posting 😉 ) has expressed an opinion and you’ve jumped straight down his throat from your position of being “in the know” with some of your mateys that are “high up” in the security forces. So, I’ve read down your posts and I’m struggling to see what your point is…other than saying that if RudeBoy doesn’t “really” know what’s going on, then he can **** of and not say anything at all.

I apologise to Rudeboy – I was annoyed to see some of what I would see as simplistic, or overly general summations of the situations and I went off.

I tried to make it clear that my only point was, that it is very very complicated and can’t easily be summed up. To do so is rude and insensitive, although I’ve been guilty of that myself.

Well, I don’t feel that the death of two Human Beings is something that should be treated with irreverence or disrespect. But I do feel that ordinary people like us should be discussing the issues that ultimately affect everyone, not just those in NI.

I grew up in the 70s and 80s; a time when Irish people were routinely stopped and held, under the PoT act. For being Irish. Even if they came from the Republic. A time when we, in London, lived in fear of IRA bombs. My mum woon’t let us go on the Tube, at one time, in case a bomb was exploded underground. I witnessed friends from Irish families abused for being Irish. There was a lot of hate and fear around.

And I remember clearly, the Ring of Steel, in the City, following bombings there. Big bombs, them. I heard them.

But it all seemed distant, somehow; a conflict in a foreign land, almost.

Until February the 9th, 1996.

Suddenly, I realised this was happening in my country, in my home town. Since then, I’ve sought to try and understand the situation in NI; to try and understand why someone might want to blow up people and buildings in my home town. I spose people in Warrington, Birmingham, Manchester, Guildford and Brighton might want to ask the same questions.

This isn’t just an Irish problem, it’s a British one. So, British people should be working together to try and find solutions. I have had conversations with members of Sinn Fein, as well as those who’ve served in the British Army, in NI. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone has a right to voice them.

So, Gnargnar; as ignorant and naive as I may be, to the realities of life in NI, please don’t dismiss my opinions as clueless. If you feel I’m wrong on something, then at least give me the opportunity to learn. To address my ignorance.

We have so much to learn from each other, is the answer.

But do we bother to listen?

Gnargnar; apology accepted. And apologise, if I’ve come across as ignorant, and if that has angered you.

I’m just a lad from the Smoke, who wants to understand more.

I’m saddened that people in Britain are still killing each other.

Well al I can do is appologise again. Perhaps I reacted so strongly because I feel so strongly that it is a very complex puzzle and therefore almost futile to debate in this context….though obviously I also realise that it’s an internet forum so everything is fair game. Things tend to be a bit more emotive when they happen only a few miles away.

So, again, for the record, I am sorry. You weren’t being ignorant, you were just generalising for the sake of stimulating debate. I see that now.

I haven’t read the whole thread – so what’s been occurring ?

Has there been a bit of a ruck on here ? But then the peace process finally kicked in and everybody is friends now ?

That’s the way to sort out differences ……..

NEVER ! NEVER ! NEVER !

Oh well ……………………. alright then.

Interesting reading guys, GnarGnar its only through people like yourself with a bit more info and background than the rest of us, that we can hopefully understand what realy happens in NI.

If I may chip in my 2p’s worth, GnarGnar’s assessment is pretty spot on. A dirty war it surely was, and I hope the past tense is the correct one.

Northern Ireland has many levels, from criminals using paramilitary groups as a way of continuing their crimes, to those who feel that they would kill for their political standpoint. It’s situation cannot be remotely expressed in a few lines on a forum.

The vast majority of the country has been moving away from the extremes of their viewpoints and becoming increasingly moderate, for want of a better word. Sinn Fein and the DUP sit together in an uneasy government, but sit together they do.

However, it seems there is an increasing number who are going back to the extremes. Those who are disaffected with the majority parties’ standpoints, and wish to express themselves albeit in very different ways, for example the TUV and the dissident republican groups. Unionists who have fallen out of love with the DUP, and republicans who will not be happy until NI is integrated into a united Ireland.

It will be interesting to see if the republican side (I assume that this was the source of this disgusting attack EDIT, just found out the Real IRA have claimed responsibilty) manage to help bring the perpetrators to justice. The mainstream republicans have condemned the attack which is at least a step forward.

So where to now? In response to an earlier post, the Republic dont want us (>90% of voters in the republic agreed to give up their territorial claim in exchange for cross border bodies). The majority here want to remain British, and we will do so until the majority vote otherwise (see the St Andrews agreement). What happened last night may well open up old wounds, and thats somewhere I for one would not want to go.

My thoughts and condolences to the families of the bereaved and injured.