Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 59 total)
  • North American Indians
  • SaxonRider
    Full Member

    I am wondering if any of you are interested at all in North American Indians.

    I don’t mean, of course, the individual human beings who happen to be of that extraction; I mean these ancient peoples, their histories, and their cultures.

    Since moving the UK 13 years ago, I have hardly so much as heard a reference to them, and yet when I have been in Germany, I have come across more than one. I am also told that German kids learn a little bit about them in school.

    So, did you play ‘cowboys and indians’ as a kid? Did you learn anything about the various tribes growing up? Is the subject something of anything more than a passing interest to you?

    Just curious, really.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Did you learn anything about the various tribes growing up?

    Yes, I learnt that the White Man broke every single one of his promises except the one about taking our land.

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    I learnt we’re supposed to call them American Natives.

    and like indigenous peoples the world over, where there’s a dominant non-native (in the sense of settlers from the point of western colonisation) or immigrant population it’s the indigenous peoples that tend to live on the worse land, have the worst education opportunities and health care and live for significantly shorter lives.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    muppetWrangler
    Free Member

    Yes to cowboys and indians as a nipper, I had a cowboy hat and a sheriffs badge a wooden tomahawk and a feathery headdress so could play either role.

    I think there might be less interest because there’s just less exposure to the subject these days. There’s an occasional big screen western every few years but in the seventies, the lone ranger was on Saturday morning TV and there were loads of movies that seemed to be on TV every other week.

    As an adult i don’t have more than a passing interest, beyond the hollywood portrayal it’s not something that I’ve any connection to.

    SaxonRider
    Full Member

    ernie_lynch – Member
    the one about taking our land.

    You’re First Nations, Ernie?

    RustySpanner
    Full Member

    Our education regarding non indigenous peoples is best described a a little Apache.

    Sorry, I can’t help it.
    I’d completely understand if someone wanted to Arapaho round my head for that one.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    it’s the indigenous peoples that tend to live on the worse land

    I’ve never understood why the wealthiest land owners in the United States aren’t Native Americans, specially in a country which values the right to private property so highly.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    You’re First Nations, Ernie?

    You were asking specifically about our childhood experiences, did you think I always played the cowboy ffs ?

    muppetWrangler
    Free Member

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPOys3uaGcM[/video]

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    North American Indians

    Gary_M
    Free Member

    Well when I was young they weren’t called native americans. But yes played cowboys and indians but that came from the incluence of westerns, as did knowing a bit about the tribes.

    Yes, I learnt that the White Man broke every single one of his promises except the one about taking our land.

    So are you a native american ernie_lynch?

    IHN
    Full Member

    I’ve never understood why the wealthiest land owners in the United States aren’t Native Americans, specially in a country which values the right to private property so highly.

    Because they were kicked off their (good) land and moved to the crap land.

    They were, basically, screwed over massively

    If you’re interested, this book is about covers it. I read about half but it gets sadly repetitive…

    marcus7
    Free Member

    Being in the building trade Ernie I’d assume you’d rather not be the cowboy… We studied the plains Indians in history and cowboys/ cattlemen, the rights and wrongs were not pushed but it was pretty obvious who got the shitty end of that particular ( short ) part of american history. ( we even got to watch a man called horse and little big man.. )

    maccyb
    Free Member

    Didn’t learn a great deal at school, though we did have a book at home which was quite informative, and didn’t sugar coat things too much.

    Visited quite a few museums in the US when I was there last year and the stories of the total destruction visited upon them by incoming non-native Americans were pretty depressing (e.g. the Trail of Tears and the Indian Wars). The National Museum of the American Indian in Washington DC was quite revealing inasmuch as it only had fragments of lost cultures to show – some artifacts, faded or fading languages and traditions.

    Spent some time in the Navajo lands (a big chunk of Arizona) which was interesting – they are clinging on (largely by virtue of their land being not all that desirable) and in fact making a bit of money from oil, but their towns were still pretty miserable.

    There was quite an interesting Reddit Ask Me Anything with a Navajo guy which is worth reading for a perspective on what it’s like now: Reddit AMA

    All in all it’s not surprising that period of history doesn’t get much coverage because it was a pretty dismal time, embarrassing to look back on as the ‘victors’ and a source of shame. Not greatly different to how Australian aboriginals were treated, and still are. Having been to similar exhibitions in Australia one tends to leave feeling pretty unimpressed with humanity.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Native Americans are quite proud to call themselves “Indians”.

    http://www.ncai.org/

    The National Congress of American Indians, founded in 1944, is the oldest, largest and most representative American Indian and Alaska Native organization serving the broad interests of tribal governments and communities”

    technicallyinept
    Free Member

    Did any 70s kids not play ‘cowboys and indians’?

    We didn’t learn anything about Native Americans at school but I do remember my primary school having a great library book on the subject.

    I started reading ‘Bury my heart at Wounded Knee’ a couple of year ago. Haven’t managed to finish it. Great book, just find it rather depressing.

    Pigface
    Free Member

    I am very interested in a lot of Native American history, Leonard Peltier and AIM etc

    Last year I went to Wounded Knee and Pine Ridge, very depressing places. Real poverty and what felt like total defeat. No casinos in nowhere South Dakota.

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    The Rich Hall program about hollywood’s depictions of Native Americans that BBC4 showed a few years back was well worth a watch if it’s ever on again.

    SaxonRider
    Full Member

    @perchypanther

    I deliberately used a term that would both attract attention, and be immediately understood. I have no idea what Americans call their aboriginal peoples, but in Canada we referred to them as ‘First Nations’. Somehow, I doubt that would have garnered many responses on here.

    That said, however much a misnomer it is, ‘Indian’ still carries historical cachet.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee was quite a shocker for a 12-year-old who still thought the US was all freedom and apple pie, and that the cowboys were the good guys.

    suburbanreuben
    Free Member

    [/quote]The Rich Hall program about hollywood’s depictions of Native Americans that BBC4 showed a few years back was well worth a watch if it’s ever on again.

    This one?

    [video]https://youtu.be/lheXnx02JYE[/video]

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    I can’t watch that but I think that’s the right name. Cheers.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    in Canada we referred to them as ‘First Nations’

    I prefer the term ‘Native American’ as the suggestion that white people aren’t proper native Americans is more insulting imo 🙂

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    My mate’s mum is half Native American and half Japanese. Her father was a Native American who at the end of WW2 ended up asa guard at an internment camp in California. Her mother was a young girl in the camp. Cue Hollywood ending…

    zippykona
    Full Member

    I think Mad Frankie Fraser was part Cherokee.

    shermer75
    Free Member

    This used to annoy me when I was younger

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJkHHVTtioQ[/video]

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Her father was a Native American who at the end of WW2 ended up asa guard at an internment camp in California. Her mother was a young girl in the camp.

    So injun savages were violating white girls as recently as WW2.

    Cue Hollywood ending…

    The cavalry turned up just in time ?

    noahhowes
    Free Member

    ‘History of the American West’ GCSE history syllabus in my school, that and ‘medicine through time’. I think I had a pretty good deal with those.

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    ernie_lynch – Member
    Her father was a Native American who at the end of WW2 ended up a sa guard at an internment camp in California. Her mother was a young girl in the camp.
    So injun savages were violating white girls as recently as WW2.

    Cue Hollywood ending…
    The cavalry turned up just in time ?

    Nope, they just got married and had 2 kids. All dull really. As a side effect Rachel has cousins with some seriously cool names.

    bikebouy
    Free Member

    I was brought up in Florida, the only reference I have to the indigenous people of the USA are either Dutch/German/Italian or British (who they quite happily claim to have pushed out) and Armish.

    Lots of history detailing the revolution though but no Injunz.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Nope, they just got married and had 2 kids.

    Well no wonder that I don’t remember seeing the film !

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I’m very much interested. I was gutted that when I went to Washington DC the amazing new museum of native american things wasn’t finished.

    What interests me is that it was effectively a stone-age culture when the Europeans arrived. So those early explorers were effectively time travellers. And they wrote down a lot of stuff, and even took pictures. And then the later explorers wrecked everything.

    America as a whole is the biggest petri dish in history.

    Re the name, Native Americans aren’t Indian, but then white people aren’t white and black people aren’t black either, so… *shrug* depends what they like to be called dunnit.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    And then the later explorers wrecked everything.

    To fair despite our romanticized image I doubt that being a hunter-gather is a whole bundle of fun.

    Bringing them into the 19th century wasn’t the crime imo, it was the way they were treated.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Timely subject as I’ve suddenly learned quite a bit about them over the last few weeks, because…

    I’ve been playing Assassin’s Creed 3, and whilst the AC series are obviously dramatised stories they come with actual historical backstory on the characters and places you encounter. AC3 is (so far) set mostly around Boston and the surrounding frontier in the mid- to late-1700’s (ie, the American Revolution).

    We really were a bunch of bastards, weren’t we.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Im with wednesday

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VbYZDohsHk[/video]

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    White man came across the sea
    He brought us pain and misery
    He killed our tribes he killed our creed
    He took our game for his own need

    We fought him hard we fought him well
    Out on the plains we gave him hell
    But many came too much for Cree
    Oh will we ever be set free?

    Riding through dust clouds and barren wastes
    Galloping hard on the plains
    Chasing the redskins back to their holes
    Fighting them at their own game
    Murder for freedom the stab in the back
    Women and children are cowards attack

    Run to the hills, run for your lives
    Run to the hills, run for your lives

    Not a really a Maiden fan … but love this song

    scruff
    Free Member

    I think its because its a quite modern history and on such a grand scale, but taking land happened in Great Britain for ages and many of them still have it (such as the Monarchy) -Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Danes etc.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    To fair despite our romanticized image I doubt that being a hunter-gather is a whole bundle of fun.

    Bringing them into the 19th century wasn’t the crime imo, it was the way they were treated.

    How much reading have you done on this? I’ve not done a lot, but some.

    The crime was modernising *against their will*. Had the Europeans set up shop next door and been sympathetic, then I’m sure there would have been a lot of cultural sharing going on. However the behaviour of the Europeans forced the natives to be conservative, so they didn’t want things to change.

    A lot of what we regard as Native American culture was intrduced by the white (or olive skinned) man. The practice of taking scalps is the most touted example but its worth remembering that horses were introduced to North America by the Spanish. Without them the whole plains culture (the classic holywood western type indian) would not have existed in the form it did.

    It interesting to see how some European objects were adapted for different uses – bottle glass and gun flints knapped into arrow heads for example.

    I read a book once which contrasted the fates of the North American and Canadian tribes, who suffered less under the white man. I think the author was trying to contrast the relativelty enlightened British colonialists with the dastardly, greedy Americans. But its more likely because there were less white settlers in Canada.

    EDIT: In reply to Molegrips – yes a lot of the native tribes did change (eg the horses) and there was a lot of cultural sharing. Syphilis and lacrosse are the only two things that come to mind at the moment, but I’m sure there were more.

    In the long run the North American indians were shafted not because they were peaceful eco friends of the earth (they weren’t) or because they had worse weapons (at the begining they didn’t). Its just there were less indians than white men.

    SaxonRider
    Full Member

    But its more likely because there were less white settlers in Canada.

    No. I actually did a lot of work on Native history during my first undergraduate degree, and (as you can imagine) grew up with a great deal of awareness of the it. The Canadians were not perfect (not by any means! There are some examples of real horrors perpetrated against the Natives), but through the system of treaties first implemented under Queen Victoria, were a damn sight better than the Americans.

    The institution of the North-West Mounted Police (what became the Royal Canadian Mounted Police) was precisely a response to American violence against the Natives in the Canadian West.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 59 total)

The topic ‘North American Indians’ is closed to new replies.