http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40723581

Too much or not soon enough?

Personally I’m in favour. 23 years is a good while, and you need to motivate people.

Nah.
I won’t vote for that.

Why wait for a government doing the legal minimum when you can go out and buy an electric car today? It’s you and me the consumers who will bring about the change through supply and demand.

Normally when a government sets a 20+ year target it’s more like making a wish than a policy decision, because it’s so far away nobody feels they have to do anything now.

2040 is ages away, I think petrol and diesel vehicles will have long gone by then anyway; look at how the range of electric cars is getting longer, there are more of them available, how much noise the Tesla model 3 has made before anyone has even got one yet. They’re even building an 8-bay supercharger station in the backwoods motorway services in Telford! I think we’re rapidly approaching a tipping point at which an electric car will be better for most people; vans are further behind, but they’ll come too.

I think this is entirely symbolic, so they can say they’re doing something (and so ClientEarth will stop taking them to court)… that said, it’s still useful as anything that gets people thinking about it sooner is a good thing.

How do you think they will get excise duty on the electricity used for charge cars ….

Probably a bit optimistic. Millions of cars to wean off the road, and the new generation of EV’s are not ready yet nor is the infrastructure to support them. Battery technology hasn’t improved or moved on since the ’50’s, the power density is still crap and the reliance on environmentally unfriendly materials to make the batteries and cars from doesn’t really make for a vehicle that over it’s entire lifecycle is any better for the environment in terms of pollution and CO2 footprint.

In the meantime petrol engine technology is still improving, new generation of variable compression ratio petrol engined cars promise all the benefits of diesel engines and diesel levels of fuel economy and CO2 emissions with all the benefits of petrol engines too with clean exhaust emissions. So looking good for getting rid of diesel engines, but not necessarily petrol engines.

I suspect the electric dream still has a way to go yet. Our biggest hope in the short term is to get more people out of cars full stop, and onto mass transport systems, so targeting those living in large cities and densely populated areas first.

23 years is more than enough time, 2030 would be a better target though energy generation will be the biggest issue to delivering this properly

CO2 emissions with all the benefits of petrol engines too with clean exhaust emissions.

😆

You don’t think petrol engines have clean exhaust emissions?

The problem with petrol engines with diesel leves of economy is that they start to produce diesel levels of NOX, wobbliscott, and need the same only partialy effective mitigation equipment. And there’s still the CO2 greenhouse issue which you can only solve by leaving fossils fuels in the ground.

The hype around Tesla puts many people off because they see electric cars as beyond their means like a Porsche, and forget you can get a 41kWh hatch for 16 000e or whatever you can negociate with your local Renault dealer.

There’s no good reason why new fossil fuel car sales could not be banned before 2025, with second-hand sales banned from 2030.

As a densely populated island only beaten by a few in Europe, we should have been leading the way on limiting cars on the road long before now. Pollution; people being lazy for short journeys; consequent worsening population health and extra NHS resources; kids can’t safely play on the streets with all the cars parked on the road or even on the pavements etc.

Not forgetting that oil is a finite resource, which is still anticipated to run out around 2050?

If ban is 2040, I’d guess the assumption is that consumer driven change will be well underway in next decade. I’d have thought that the car manufacturers have made promises to Govts (France already this commitment) on electric cars and have do a put up or shut – we will provide the cars if you provide the infrastructure. Will need massive infrastructure investment in both charging and generation. Hopefully linked too renewal be generation

So really it’s about showing support for direction of travel that will already happening and justification for govt spending on infrastructure

You don’t think petrol engines have clean exhaust emissions?

If you do go and try breathing some in!!

It’s got to happen, and a deadline will focus the collective mind. Should be sooner though

If you do go and try breathing some in!!

I will be impressed if this can be argued against.

I will be impressed if this can be argued against.

You obviously havent been here long!!

Battery technology hasn’t improved or moved on since the ’50’s

<John McEnroe>

You cannot be serious

</JMcE>

You honestly don’t see a COLOSSAL improvement between the massive feeble lead acid batteries of yore and today’s vastly cheaper power dense batteries commercially avaiable today, and all the news about developments such as sodium and flow batteries?!

Where are we at with Battery technology these days. I don’t ever see that mentioned. I thought that the actual green benefits of electric cars were outweighed by the making of the battery?

Only in the oil company propaganda, Mactheknife.

Extracting lithium is messy yes, but compared with the damge caused by the oil industry insignificant. Recycling lithium batteries cleanly is now happening at a pilot plant in France but they don’t have many to do yet as when the batteries are down to 75% they get transferred to Renault’s elctricity storage plant that acts as a buffer for its solar plant.

#greenwash.

Though I’m hugely in favour of hybrids.

Lead acid arguably greener. 99% recylcable. No currently viable way of recycling lithium batteries.

Extracting lithium is messy yes, but compared with the damge caused by the oil industry insignificant. Recycling lithium batteries cleanly is now happening at a pilot plant in France but they don’t have many to do yet as when the batteries are down to 75% they get transferred to Renault’s elctricity storage plant that acts as a buffer for its solar plant.

And tesla are repurposing batteries no longer punchy enough for continued use in cars for home green energy storage.

Still not recycling though. Still going in a hole in the ground when they’re finished with.

Excellent, very pleased. Although I agree that it would have been good to see a more aggressive timeline – 2040 is a bit feeble.

To the people saying that TODAY the technology/infastructure isn’t good enough…. that’s kinda the point. We need government to send a signal like this, so the industry can commit R&D funds with confidence. It’s the difference between shareholders demanding to know why money is being spent on low return hybrid/EV development, and them demanding to know why more money isn’t being spent on it.

Yep, I want to know about the carbon footprint of a battery, it’s heavy metal make up and how do we dispose of them at the end of the useful life.

All for it but are we sleep walking into another set of issues?

What about hydrogen cells? I was hoping advances in this technology would have been moving at a rate as well.

want to expand bikebouy?

Hybrids are a bridge technology, it’s a means to get us a start on the ladder. As it’s a 23 year gap moving to a largely green and renewable energy generation base and storage along with a way to drive vehicles with it.

What about hydrogen cells? I was hoping advances in this technology would have been moving at a rate as well.

Make it work and it’s viable, only thing here is no more petrol and diesel.

It also means there is time to work on ways to dispose and recycle batteries properly.

What goes wrong with a lot of these discussions is forgetting where we were 23 years ago (1994) most people didn’t have mobiles, laptops lasted a fraction of the time, duracell was king of the portable electronics etc.

The price of batteries…

And tesla are repurposing batteries no longer punchy enough for continued use in cars for home green energy storage.

No they’re not… Tesla’s opinion is that it’s more efficient to recycle old batteries into new ones rather than repurpose them for other uses that don’t need such high power density.

Loads of other companies are doing that, though.

We are looking for the purchase of a hybrid – at least – family car in 2018, but this has focused my mind on what to replace my 2.0d 2nd car with when the PCP ends next October. Likely a hybrid replacement or I’ll keep it for a couple more years til theres more electric on the market.

If all this does is focus people onto less polluting vehicles its a good thing.

I note the punchy ‘New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK’ headlines is somewhat watered down by the first line when it turns into ‘New diesel and petrol cars and vans ‘. Coaches, buses and lorries will be ok then?

Top lithium mining countries in the world:-
Australia
Chilie
Argentina
China
Zimbabwe

Move over arab states, say hello to our new financial masters.

Nobody will want these cars anyway after 2030 the issue will be history by 2040.

This is just a headline grabbing distraction from the fact this government has yet again done nothing to improve air quality.

Cynical and inept as usual from this mob of tossers.

You can’t do it too fast. If everyone in UK swapped their car for an electric within the next year there would not be enough power to charge everyone’s car each night. Looks ominous even in 20 years time…

Top lithium mining countries in the world:-
Australia

Thankfully we have plenty of nasty besties to ward off invasion and you would need to kknow where to actually invade. We do regieme change often enough though.

We also have the open spaces, sunshine and wind to charge the batteries too.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-07/sa-to-get-worlds-biggest-lithium-ion-battery/8687268

It seems to me the whole pollution in cars business is about polishing a turd.

The emphasis is on % emissions. There should also be a low total figure imposed.

The introduction of the Mini in 1959 showed that you could transport a family around in a small light car with about 40 bhp. So why do we need more powerful and bigger cars?

The Japanese Kei car comes to mind as an example. A small people carrier in the shape of a Suzuki Handyvan can carry 6 people.

(Pure hypocrisy here, of course. My car is far bigger than necessary)

Not forgetting that oil is a finite resource, which is still anticipated to run out around 2050?

By whom?

By Mary Fagan, Deputy City Editor12:00AM BST 25 Jun 2000
SHEIKH YAMANI, the former Saudi oil minister, has told The Telegraph that he expects a cataclysmic crash in the price of oil in the next five years.
In an unprecedented personal interview, Sheikh Yamani also predicts that, within a few decades, vast reserves of oil will lie unwanted and the “oil age” will come to an end.
In an interview with Gyles Brandreth, he says: “Thirty years from now there will be a huge amount of oil – and no buyers. Oil will be left in the ground. The Stone Age came to an end, not because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will come to an end not because we have a lack of oil.”

Whilst it needs to be done I for one will lament the loss of the combustion engine.

Never again to rag a car’s gears, never again to tinker in the garage and never again to hear that noise.

I think you are missing something.

Where does the electricity come from to charge these batteries

Here in Norway its 98% renewable (hydroelectric) and we have the infrastructure to handle a load of people plugging in their cars in the evening to charge them

The UK doesnt

No currently viable way of recycling lithium batteries.

False: a French TV programme was devoted to a new plant that is recycling lithium batteries. The losses of lithium are low, the environmental impact is low and given the price of lithium it’s econmically viable despite being labour intensive at present as there are no robots yet.

A point I’ve made repeatedly, vehicles sizes and weights should be limited.
It would improve safety, reduce pollution and make electrification more achievable immediately.

The UK is at the forefront of producing pointless vehicles though so just wont happen.

You will forgive me for not giving full backing to a former Saudi Oil Minister 😉
The part that is coming is cost and consequence of extraction, harder to reach, riskier and harsher conditions, greater environmental impacts will all make it harder to maintain levels of consumption.

We currently have the technology to move away from coal, oil and gas.
We have battery technology to store and smooth supply
We have the start of an electric transport industry

The Stone Age came to an end, not because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will come to an end not because we have a lack of oil

This part may be true – and is true today.

The simple version is if there is a shortage of fossil fuels do you want to be the first free of them or last one using them?

The UK doesnt

This is why it’s not being done in 3 years. It’s giving time to sort these issues out and provide a focus on getting it done.

Where does the electricity come from to charge these batteries

Here in Norway its 98% renewable (hydroelectric) and we have the infrastructure to handle a load of people plugging in their cars in the evening to charge them

The UK doesnt

This:

To the people saying that TODAY the technology/infastructure isn’t good enough…. that’s kinda the point.

A point I’ve made repeatedly, vehicles sizes and weights should be limited.
It would improve safety, reduce pollution and make electrification more achievable immediately.

The UK is at the forefront of producing pointless vehicles though so just wont happen.

Again this:

To the people saying that TODAY the technology/infastructure isn’t good enough…. that’s kinda the point.

I know it’s early over there…. but come on.