I think it might be the list of contributors to this thread!
I enjoyed it more on the first page, when it was all about people enjoying themselves. I was glad to see how long it went on before it descended into the usual arguments. And disappointed in myself that I joined in!
Read the post.
No problem, BB, thanks for calling me daft, then agreeing with me.
I didn't, I called your argument daft. Perfectly possible for a very sensible person to deploy a daft argument
yes, I do get the best piece of equipment I can manage for what I doso you sacrifice protection for weight and venting where appropriate? xc ride, xc helmet? DH day, DH helmet? MX day, MX helmet?
Different circumstances and issues, for example speed, and besides in my risk assessment I include heat exhaustion so venting seems sensible to me.
I never mentioned cost.
And your point is ?
BB... so you do make an assessment of the risk then, it just happens to be different from other peoples assessment. Life would be so dull if we all agreed though.
Now, that wasn't so difficult was it?
:o)
uurrr...
I haven't made a point yet, just asked a question. And I don't think it was a daft one.
The helmet-in-all-circumstances types always suggest that because you can't tell when an accident will happen, and what sort of accident it will be, you should always wear a helmet. You can't risk assess head injuries out of mountain biking, so you should always wear a helmet.
But in buying a helmet, you are making that risk assessment: "I ride a lot in summer, and not that fast, so I'll be OK with this uber vented xc lid with no chin guard"
Unless you wear the highest protection helmet you can find (hands up if you do?), you've made a risk assessment about your likehood of injury and giving up some protection for some comfort.
That's not stupid, deluded, irrational or selfish. It's a decision, your decision, and you went through the same mental steps to get there as someone who decides to give up a little more protection for a little more comfort.
the other night i managed to take my helmet off, hook it on the stem, get my phone out of my pocket, take a photo, put the phone back in my pocket all whilst grinding up a long boring road climb. at the top I managed to put it back on, and carry on riding.
crazy huh. i could have died....
BB... so you do make an assessment of the risk then, it just happens to be different from other peoples assessment. Life would be so dull if we all agreed though.Now, that wasn't so difficult was it?
Did I ever say otherwise? All I said was I envy the zenlike ability to foresee a stack. Which in fact goes back to my previous point that nobody goes out on a ride having decided that today is the day for a stack. Its an unforeseen event.
I haven't made a point yet, just asked a question.
I think you did, it went like this
I never mentioned cost.and I asked
And your point is ?Simply because I didn't understand why you would make that statement, or indeed what its relevance to the discussion was.
You introduced the element of cost that had nothing to do with what I had been saying.
and unless you wear the highest rated MX lid available, you have used you r own ability, zen like or not, to foresee the types of falls you're likely to encounter and chosen your lid accordingly. Same as everyone else, even those whove chosen a not-a-helmet helmet.
If quoting a 1960's helmet advert to illustrate a point is mentioning cost then you've got me. The point being that I buy the best helmet I can for the purpose I want it for. Sorry if that wasn't clear for you.
and unless you wear the highest rated MX lid available, you have used you r own ability, zen like or not, to foresee the types of falls you're likely to encounter and chosen your lid accordingly. Same as everyone else, even those whove chosen a not-a-helmet helmet.
And your point is ?
All I said was I envy the zenlike ability to foresee a stack. Which in fact goes back to my previous point that nobody goes out on a ride having decided that today is the day for a stack. Its an unforeseen event.
Of course its an unforsen event - but what is important also is how likely is the crash?
Its the ability to decide the level of risk and make rational decisions. Cycling is generally safe but Some forms of cycling carry more risk than others. We all make decisions about what level of risk is acceptable. Riding a WC DH run helmetless seems rather stupid - but full on DH gear on a canal towpath seems rather OTT. So inbetween those two extremes we all make decisions about what is a sensible level of protection for that ride.
When I am pootling along local easy paths then I know that the risk of having a serious head injury that would be prevented by a helmet are so low that I am prepared to accept it.
and unless you wear the highest rated MX lid available, you have used you r own ability, zen like or not, to foresee the types of falls you're likely to encounter and chosen your lid accordingly. Same as everyone else, even those whove chosen a not-a-helmet helmet.And your point is ?
I think that's it, actually. Can we stop now?
i wear a helmet as a safety device for others as it stops glare from my slaphead dazzling oncoming road users...
Actually don't think I've ever disagreed with that TJ. My beef is this nonsense regarding helmets don't reduce the risk of head damage, cause injuries etc etc. Not for me to tell you what to do, except insomuch as not really wanting to ride with helmetless folks.
I would say here and now though, that I've never once foreseen any of the numerous stacks that I've had over 40 years or so of cycling. So on balance I wear a lid every time I ride a bike. Been knocked down on the road 4 times, off-road I've broken numerous ribs, collar bones on several occasions, broken my wrist once and assorted other less serious events, but never suffered any serious head injury despite writing off 3 helmets to date.
Berm Bandit - MemberActually don't think I've ever disagreed with that TJ. My beef is this nonsense regarding helmets don't reduce the risk of head damage, cause injuries etc etc. Not for me to tell you what to do, except insomuch as not really wanting to ride with helmetless folks.
Trouble is - that is not nonsense either. It s different point but linked. Helmets provide far less protection than many folk think and in some cases they can make injury worse. How big the "some" is is debatable but the effect is proven to be there. Up to 30% in one piece of research (TRL)
Reading these threads makes me wonder just how frequently are people falling off?
I crash a lot, and have done for many many years but while riding XC I'd be unlucky to have a proper crash more than about once every 6 months, on the Road it's almost never, jumping again almost never (I know how/when to bail, but wouldn't call that a crash), riding DH I'd expect to crash almost every time I ride a proper DH track (or I wouldn't be pushing myself at all).
Crashing/bailing is a skill that needs to be used to stay good at. I'd say on average most competitors racing DH at Glencoe last weekend crashed way more times than they rode the chairlift up and most would be expecting to whereas most people on here probably find crashing a complete surprise and don't even understand why it happened.
i ride a bike almost every day without a helmet
Racing is a different matter. For normal trail riding for enjoyment, even if you like to ride fairly fast, I wouldn't want to be crashing at all. Having said that I have lost the front twice in the last few years (nothing serious, wet grass etc), plus I've had a prat fall whilst mucking about in the car park. And that's it for as long as I can remember. Certainly don't know when the last time I went over the front was. Years and years ago. However, I don't mind slowing down to go fast, if you know what I mean.
TandemJeremy - Member
The after the fact studies of hospital admissions that he refers to all share one serious flaw - it a "self selecting sample". It only considers cyclists that crash and end up in hospital.
As someone with "scientific training" you should know that's irrelevant if the question you're asking is "do helmets reduce the severity of injury in cyclists hospitalised after accidents where they hit their head", which appears to be the question most of those papers were asking. Also, you could just as easily argue that it underestimates helmet effectiveness because maybe a lot of people who land on their heads wearing a helmet don't need to go to hospital at all.
Anyway, still waiting for the list of references supporting your argument. Over to you...
ALF - go read the cyclehelmets.org stuff. I am not saying its all true but some thought provoking stuff.
a critique of the cochrane review This discusses the limititions of the sort of research that relies on after the event hospital admissions.
Plenty of references to follow if you are intested
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1146.html
Aninteresting paper http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1149.html
Glen - I haven't raced in over 5 years. Your description of how you ride sound makes you sound like a right mincer TBH.
That the same cyclehelmets.org you described as
cyclehelmets.org is a useful resource but it clearly requires a healthy scepticism.
Cheap shot I appreciate, but couldn't resist it.
So why is it okay to hurl oneself at 30-40mph down a hillside on a bike with only a helmet for protection? I would imagine that the risk of injury is significantly higher for that, that riding along a Sustrans route without a helmet.
Hilldodger, your "tartan jesus" comment was as usual form you, lame, xenophobic and pathetic. I am very much against TJ's view regarding the helmet, but I would not use insults to make my point. I think you may have to apologies (which I doubt you will prior to your attitude with anti-french comments)
When it's going to be shuttle only had in the mix body armor and ff helmet.
TJ you fail to comprehend that you just CAN NOT predict when you're going to fall. Too many variables. Just to give you an example I fell sunday in front of my house door, just because I forget to unclip. Tis is a stupid accident I concur, but an accident nevertheless. What happen if such accident happen in town, where the multitude of object can interact with the trajectory of your head.
I think we've done this. You don't always know when you're going to fall off, so you make choices based on comfort and risk. Juan, you don't always wear a full face helmet. why not? you never know when something bad will happen. Too many variables. Shouldn't you wear the ff all the time?
Shouldn't you wear the ff all the time?
So you'll wear a helmet with the maximum protection up to the point where it's not worth the discomfort for the kind of riding you're doing?
LOL at ned.
I think that's it, actually. Can we stop now?
Take your own advice brother.
well i am not sure I want to risk getting too hot, suffocate and lost conscience due to over-heating
Berm Bandit - MemberLOL at ned.
I think that's it, actually. Can we stop now?
Take your own advice brother.
Hah. I know, it’s ridiculous. I’ve felt the same about TJ in the past. It looks futile from the outside, but from here, I feel like that cartoon of the guy who won’t go to bed because someone on the internet is wrong. I want to stop reading the thread, but I keep looking back.
I CAN stop!
ned.. I know... go for a ride without a helmet, you'll soon crash and not have to worry about it any more...
;o)
you just CAN NOT predict when you're going to fall. Too many variables. Just to give you an example I fell sunday in front of my house door, just because I forget to unclip. Tis is a stupid accident I concur, but an accident nevertheless.
By that 'logic' you might as well wear a helmet whenever you get out of your chair. You could fall in the house; in the garden; in the street; wherever... Why do you not wear a full-face helmet when you walk to the shops?
I fell sunday in front of my house door, just because I forget to unclip.
It is becoming increasingly clear that some people do simply pose a greater risk to their own safety than others.
Your description of how you ride sound makes you sound like a right mincer TBH.I'm old enough not to have to compare myself to anyone else. I ride for the enjoyment, and my number one priority is smoothness, not speed. I'll take any speed that comes as a consequence of riding well. If I were trying so hard that I frequently, or even infrequently, fell off I'd be embarrassed to be honest - I'd rather succeed in my aim of going for a good ride than fail, which is what falling off represents.
May I ask how old that is?
I grew out of being embarassed by falling off a bike while I was still a kid.
As Evel Kneivel once said "you can fall many times in life but you are never a failure as long as you try to get up"
RIP
It is becoming increasingly clear that some people do simply pose a greater risk to their own safety than others.
GW. Evel Kneivel was effectively paid to fall off his bike and smash himself up - we remember the carnage a lot more than the successes. I'm paid to stay on, and to teach other people to stay on.
It's a free world and we have chosen a free-spirited way to enjoy it, so I do get that some people have different styles. From my experience of meeting and spending time with thousands of riders though, by far the more common way of enjoying oneself is minimising harm and maximising flow and enjoyment. Falling off is not part of the intention, or even inevitable. Having said that, I do wear a helmet mountain biking, and a lot of the time on the road. If I lived in an urban place I'd be minded to wear a helmet all the time on the road.
I'm two-score and five tomorrow, btw.
he was stumbled into getting paid to entertain us and got carried away.
read this:
http://dirt.mpora.com/news/fabien-barel-update-2.html
I'm well aware this train of thought is in the minority and you're right it would be a dull dull world if we were all the same
Happy Birthday.
Ps. being over 40 myself I often compare my DH times to that of the Vets (often won by the 45+ Vets World champ)
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