No one can pretend not to fall on a ride

Exactly, that's why accidents are called accidents 😉

Anyone who thinks they can accurately predict when, how and why they will fall off a bicycle is really deluded.

Decide yourself about to wear or not to wear a helmet, but don't try and justify it with some bullshine about risk asessment or rationality, just make your choice and STFU 😉

And anyway I kept my helmet on…..which was nice

juan – Member

….specially not TJ (who is probably a poor rider, as he's slower than I am

The Tartan Jesus is a 'racer' now dontcha know 😆

Anyone who thinks they can accurately predict when, how and why they will fall off a bicycle is really deluded.

good job no one claimed that then.

juan – Member

Well it comes with the fact that you may take the risks, but we all pay for it. No one can pretend not to fall on a ride specially not TJ (who is probably a poor rider, as he's slower than I am… And I am average less).
Now some people know things better than everyone else, which is very easy when other people pays for your mistakes.

So why is it okay to hurl oneself at 30-40mph down a hillside on a bike with only a helmet for protection? I would imagine that the risk of injury is significantly higher for that, that riding along a Sustrans route without a helmet.

Are you still not putting yourself at risk of injury that, as you put it, other people have to pay for? If not, why not?

I decided not to wear a helmet for this mornings ride, I took no spairs no tools no pump nothing and all was fine until…

I did a small tail whip and got a bloody puncture. I never get punctures!!!

Then on the walk back to the car I realised my forks were only giving me about 50mm!

So conclusive proof if you don't wear a helmet you will brake your bike. 🙁

hilldodger – Member

Decide yourself about to wear or not to wear a helmet, but don't try and justify it with some bullshine about risk asessment or rationality, just make your choice and STFU

Excellent… risk assessments are bull$h*t now, I'm sure the HSE would like to be told this… it'd certainly make their job easier!

;o)

I try hard not to get involved in this well worn debate – but I have to take exception. Of course you can restrain your riding to the point where you never fall off. Or at least so seldom and so mildly that it amounts to the same thing. Risk assessment done correctly is a perfectly good way to go about things.

Light reading; http://cyclehelmets.org/

LOL (knew that was coming)

This "evidence" works on the same level as citing the BNP as experts on immigration. i.e. its a pressure group with a one sided view trying to prove their bias. By that simple fact they have self evidently written off pretty much everything they say as being fundamentally flawed.

So try again Crikey. TJ's been quoting that twaddle for years. Its still twaddle regardless of how often its referred to.

Now then tell me about this ability to pre-select the time place, speed and severity of your offs. Obviously you can do this, as you claim to wear a helmet when its necessary and not when it isn't.

Personally I don't give a toss whether you wear one or not. Its absolutely your call, however please keep away from me when you're riding, as I don't want responsibility for you, and preferably try not to ride where the land owners are concerned about litigation due to the severity of the injuries on their land. I don't need my riding opportunities to become even more restricted than they are now.

Oh yeah, and one other thing, regarding my earlier comments regarding wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. The technology for the constuction of cycle helmets is the same technology as used for M/C helmets, and isn't simply an inch of polystyrene as you claim. So obviously you would be against the wearing of M/c helmets for the same reasons you would be anti cycle ones…… right?

Face it, the choice is yours, and I don't think anyone would dispute your right to make it, but there is no reasoned argument other than free choice. So don't try to justify it with utter crap.

Reading these threads makes me wonder just how frequently are people falling off?

Oh yeah, and one other thing, regarding my earlier comments regarding wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. The technology for the constuction of cycle helmets is the same technology as used for M/C helmets, and isn't simply an inch of polystyrene as you claim.

Erm… you have actually handled a motorcycle helmet I presume… and compared the weight to that of a bike helmet?

Now, I have a Xen at home and that is about an inch of polystyrene with a plastic shell over the outside… that's it.. nothing more.

So what exactly is the technology that is shared between the two?

And just as a little thought… would you make a Sikh with a turban wear a helmet for cycling? :o)

funkynick – Member

Excellent… risk assessments are bull$h*t now, I'm sure the HSE would like to be told this… it'd certainly make their job easier!

Actually many of them are 😉
RA's define the potential risk for using specified objects/materials in a defined situation. It's a little bit more involved than cocking an eye up the trail and think "och aye, cannae be fallin off on this one"

Just like many car/motorcycle 'silly' accidents happen within a few miles of where you live (ie on roads you think you know like the back of your hand) so I would guess that as many bike accidents happen 'messing about on an easy trail' as 'hammering it down the black'.

You can't predict the circumstances or outcome of an accident, you can only take whatever precautions you feel personally happy with, that may be assessing the risk but it's cerainly not a Risk Assessment as defined by any H&S regulators.

So what exactly is the technology that is shared between the two?

A motorcycle helmet has two major parts: the outer shell and the energy-absorbing inner liner. The inner lining is made of expanded polystyrene or EPS, the same stuff used in beer coolers, foam coffee cups, and packing material. Outer shells come in two basic flavors: a resin/fiber composite, such as fiberglass, carbon fiber and Kevlar, or a molded thermoplastic such as ABS or polycarbonate, the same basic stuff used in face shields and F-16 canopies.

The shell is there for a number of reasons. First, it's supposed to protect against pointy things trying to penetrate the EPS—though that almost never happens in a real accident. Second, the shell protects against abrasion, which is a good thing when you're sliding into the chicane at Daytona. Third, it gives Troy Lee a nice, smooth surface to paint dragons on. Riders—and helmet marketers—pay a lot of attention to the outer shell and its material. But the part of the helmet that absorbs most of the energy in a crash is actually the inner liner.

When the helmet hits the road or a curb, the outer shell stops instantly. Inside, your head keeps going until it collides with the liner. When this happens, the liner's job is to bring the head to a gentle stop—if you want your brain to keep working like it does now, that is.

The great thing about EPS is that as it crushes, it absorbs lots of energy at a predictable rate. It doesn't store energy and rebound like a spring, which would be a bad thing because your head would bounce back up, shaking your brain not just once, but twice. EPS actually absorbs the kinetic energy of your moving head, creating a very small amount of heat as the foam collapses.

And just as a little thought… would you make a Sikh with a turban wear a helmet for cycling? :o)

already answered as below:-

Face it, the choice is yours, and I don't think anyone would dispute your right to make it, but there is no reasoned argument other than free choice. So don't try to justify it with utter crap.

I think some people just fail to understand what a risk assessment is. It is not a full prediction of the future, but it is a balanced view on the likelihood of the frequency and severity of potential events.

If I jump on a bike and ride very well inside my limits then both the frequency and severity of accidents drop to very much lower levels – the frequency to virtually never and the potential severity comes way down too (obviously freak outcomes are possible, as they are with walking, running, using stairs etc). Which just leaves the argument about if there is any risk at all then you should wear a helmet – but the logical extension of that argument is that you should avoid all risk and not cycle at all.

Haven't we been here before?

Erm… you have actually handled a motorcycle helmet I presume… and compared the weight to that of a bike helmet?

Erm, yes, I used to race Speedway (both cycle and motor versions) amongst other things.

hilldodger… well, as my other half works in H&S I do actually tend to agree with you there having seen some of the things she has to do on occasion.

Although I certainly don't agree that more bike accidents happen while pootling around at home compared to hammering it down the black run. That's a bit like saying more accidents happen close to home than on the race track! I'm far closer to my limit, and far closer to having an accident, when piling down a trail at speed.

But shouldn't a risk assessment be an assessment of the risk of doing an activity, that then allows you to make a choice whether to do that activity as is, or to do it with added constraints(eg wear a helmet), or not to do it at all.

BB… excellent description of a motorcycle helmet. I'm guessing a cut and paste? ;o)

Now compare with a cycle helmet which has probably less than an inch of polystyrene with a thin plastic outer with gopping great holes in it to let the air in/out. Well, I guess we can agree they are superficially similar though.

On the motorcycle front, they seem to also wear leathers and spine protectors… should these not be worn on a mountain bike as well? Or how about the neck protectors that they downhill guys wear… how far do you take it to make an activity completely safe?

Oh, and you are aware that it's legal for a Sikh with a turban to ride a motorcycle without a helmet aren't you… :o)

Mmmm Speedway….
Colmonoy for sliding, Bell moto 3, wasn't it?.. hiding behind the programme board on the corner, Castrol R, methanol, Bovril and a meat pie?..Carlisle tyres, Jawa, Weslake, rip offs for the rain…wicked.

The 40 odd people on the 1st page of this thread, with their tales of nice bike rides, are irrational, stupid and selfish.

By choosing not to protect their heads from certain types of injury from certain types of potential accidents, they have rolled the dice and risked brain damage, death and the misery of their families. And have done for years, by the sounds of things.

And for what? The pleasure of the sun on their foreheads, the wind in their hair, and an unencumbered view of the sky and the clouds.

****s.

And lo – the ignorant ranters come out.

Rational risk assessments is obviously to difficult for some of you. Seems little point in trying to explain.

hilldodger- You can't predict the circumstances or outcome of an accident, you can only take whatever precautions you feel personally happy with, that may be assessing the risk but it's cerainly not a Risk Assessment as defined by any H&S regulators.

Wrong and ignorant – what a surprise.

A risk assessment is exactly that – an assessment of the level of risk and the severity of that risk – you then make sensible decisions about what you do to mitigate that risk.

Some forms of cycling the level of risk is so low that I am prepared to accept it. Do you wear a helmet to walk to the shops? To get out of the bath? Why not?
Bermbandit – you should look at the cyclemhelmets stuff – such twaddle as research for the TRL. Still – it doesn't agree with your prejudices so it must be twaddle.

congratulations guys = you have resorted to personal attacks and unscientific ranting. Courteous discourse and logical thinking is clearly beyond you.

There is no evidence for cycle helmets reducing injury that stands up to any scrutiny. There is no epidemic of head injuries in non helmeted cyclists. Risk levels are low for some forms of cycling. ( and high for others)

This is what the real state of play is – all your rantings do not alter the proven facts

nedrapier – that is such a superb failure to understand what is being said as to make me assume that you are joking. Very good.

Ned there's far more risks we take everyday that mean are families could suffer. What do you do about them are do you leave a completely dull life. I guess so given the need you have insult others.

Reading these threads makes me wonder just how frequently are people falling off?

Indeed. 🙂

I have fallen off quite hard 4 times in my last 3 mountain bike rides. On each occasion I was wearing a helmet and gloves.

I have fallen off once in my last (roughly) 2,000 rides on cycle paths, roads, running local errands and commuting. I was wearing a helmet on that particular occasion, but only hit my knee. Of those 2,000 rides I was probably wearing a helmet for 2/3 of them I suppose.

nedrapier

And will continue to do so – the risks are millions to one and the risks are not eliminated by wearing a helmet.

Why should I wear a helmet for a millions to one risk?

I think some people just fail to understand what a risk assessment is. It is not a full prediction of the future, but it is a balanced view on the likelihood of the frequency and severity of potential events.

Agreed, but when the total risk is low (as in severe head injury from riding a bike) then the freak outcomes become a significant factor in the total.

I don't know anyone who's crashed in a predictably dangerous circumstance, all the crashes I've experienced and heard about have been those people may class as freak outcomes……

the misery of their families

I have private health insurance, and my death in service benefits, life insurance and pension death benefits would pay out about £750,000 for my family. If I have a freak accident while going really slowly and not wearing a helmet. They'd also pay out if I was hit by a meteor, or slipped while getting out of the bath. Hope this helps. 🙂

😕 :-)LOL at crikey..

More a case of eyeballs vibrating so much you only see a blur, hanging on for grim death and lots of **** **** feckity **** **** going on inside said bell helmet. Used to love it, was also cycle speedway team mate to Simon Wigg, but regretably unable to rise to the same heights at the big boys stuff though.

BB… excellent description of a motorcycle helmet. I'm guessing a cut and paste? ;o)

😯 Am I so obviously that shallow?

Well, I guess we can agree they are superficially similar though

I'll take that as a yes then? ….. blimey one thread, two scores….whatever next common sense on STW? ;o)

Four times in the last three rides? Jeepers.

I'm pushing myself glen. 😉

I don't know anyone who's crashed in a predictably dangerous circumstance, all the crashes I've experienced and heard about have been those people may class as freak outcomes……

That's a lot of crap. Everyone has seen crashes in predictably dangerous circumstances.

What you're saying only makes sense if you fail to do any active safety (ride with sensible technique, well within your limits). Plus if you follow what you're saying about freak outcomes you'll wear a helmet to cross the road.

TandemJeremy – Member
A risk assessment is exactly that – an assessment of the level of risk and the severity of that risk – you then make sensible decisions about what you do to mitigate that risk.

Biased and bigoted – again 😛

I was trying to make the distinction that an individual taking a personal decision is far from a risk assessment as understood by H&S professionals.

You are pefectly free to decide for yourself, but don't try to garnish your own personal appraisal of a situation by referring to it as a risk assessment 🙄

I'm pushing myself glen.

So it seems. I prefer to be a bit toned-down and not fall off at all.

Riding without a helmet even to the shops is asking for brain damage or worse.

I am a firm believer that you shouldn't have a chioce, it should be the law, just like wearing a seatbelt.

H&S professionals

Perhaps you could hire yourself out as a Professional assessor of mountain-biking-related risk to people who lack TJ's confidence in their assessment skills? There'd be a huge market. 😉

Another funny one, dirtynap.

glenp – Member

I don't know anyone who's crashed in a predictably dangerous circumstance, all the crashes I've experienced and heard about have been those people may class as freak outcomes……
That's a lot of crap. Everyone has seen crashes in predictably dangerous circumstances.

Not me, never seen a crash to which I could say 'I saw that coming'

What you're saying only makes sense if you fail to do any active safety (ride with sensible technique, well within your limits). Plus if you follow what you're saying about freak outcomes you'll wear a helmet to cross the road.

Sorry, I was assuming sensible technique as a given 😉
and should have said 'crashes with injurious outcomes' rather than just 'crashes'.

Hilldodger – you are wrong . You clearly do not understand what a risk assessment is – still – don't let that stop you attacking me will you.

One can apply the principles of risk assessment to any activity – and cycling is not different.

Bermbandit – you should look at the cyclemhelmets stuff – such twaddle as research for the TRL. Still – it doesn't agree with your prejudices so it must be twaddle.

I have, and I'd be much more impressed to see unbiased research which doesn't pander to your or their predjudices. Can't see your problem with that statement. TRL may well use it, but that won't be in isolation and it will be part of a properly structured and balanced view.

Hilldodger how did you learn that touching fire can burn you? Did you have a full hse report on it when you were a kid?

i ride 30 miles each morning on the york solar way without my helmet…its bliss. But i always wear it for true off road.

The smell of Castrol R and methanol is the closest thing to a time machine I know, it takes me right back to being 13 again… Magic boxes, remember them?

Helmet threads are like religion, no-one will budge and it always gets personal..

I wear one to avoid comments like those above, I don't believe it will help and am happy to ride with or without it.

Off for a ride now.. 😀