I’m not involved in this and have no real opinions of the rights or wrongs from either side. It’s just something I heard a friend’s son talking about and wondered about the legal aspect of it.

The friend’s son is under 18.
He wanted to get in to a nightclub with a strict Over 18s Only policy.
He borrowed his older brother’s driving licence to use as proof of age.
The doorman was suspicious, so body searched him and found the boy’s own licence in his pocket.
The doorman handed the boy’s own licence back and kept his brother’s licence before chucking him out.
The boy ended up giving his brother £20 to get a replacement licence.

If the doorman has evidence of a crime, or attempted crime, such as under age drinking, obtaining goods or services by deception, identity theft or theft of a driving licence, and has the suspects name and driving licence number, shouldn’t he immediately contact the police and hand over the confiscated licence ?
Sending the suspect on his way while keeping what could well be stolen property doesn’t sound like the right way to go about it to me.

I don’t reckon the doorman had any right to keep the licence unless, as you say he’s going to pass it to the police immediately. Call me a cynic but it wouldn’t surprise me if the doorman has a sideline in flogging hooky IDs to other teens.

aaah.. those reknowned paragons of virtue.. those sage bastions of decency.. those moral guardians..

I’m no expert but what you say sounds about right to me, I assume this all happened on the street before the little tyke even entered the building, no? Also can the doorman, legally, do a body search?

I would guess anyone can do a body search if it’s a condition of entry to a private venue.
Yes, I wondered what really happened to the older brother’s licence.
The younger brother is hardly likely to go to the police himself.

dodgy as IMO, I’d involve the Police, they won’t give a *** about the kid and the bouncer is relying on not getting dobbed in.

Happens all the time. All bouncers do it.

What do they do with the licences then ?

Hand them over to the police probably?

I don’t see how it’s legal for them to keep it. They can ask for whatever they want in order to gain access to the club but can’t force him if he chooses not to enter.

I didn’t think to ask for more details at the time, but if it was handed to the police, then surely they would return it to its rightful owner.
I remember the boy saying he had to pay the £20 replacement fee, which suggests the doorman kept, destroyed, or passed it on elsewhere.

Surely its theft as the doorman has no legal powers.

I’d report it as stolen, if only because the DVLA may not be too happy to be told it had been given to a bouncer who did something unspecified with it 😛

hhhmmmmm, lets see. 17 y/o tries to get into an 18+ club. Tries to fake himself in as his older brother. Gets caught. Gets license taken so that he cant try again.

Sounds let yet another STW case of SIUP

As far as I know it will all get handed to the police.. who will then bin it to save on time.. resources and paperwork..

Or even more likely.. they will have asked the clubs owners to bin it themselves for the same reason..

There appears to be no clear answer at present. By fraudulently using someone else’s ID to obtain alcohol, both the person using the ID and the person giving them the ID are breaking the law and thus leaving them liable to prosecution. The door/bar staff (at least as advised by our county licensing department,) should confiscate the ID and report it to the police who will then collect the ID and follow the matter up with the ID’s owner. The police however have made it clear that they have, quite rightly, much more pressing matters on a weekend evening to be dealing with than the paperwork/effort involved in this.

At present the stance, purely for the benefit of oursleves and other licensees in the area, is to confiscate the ID and get a message relayed to the owner that they can collect their ID after a couple of days. The consequences of being caught serving anyone underage do not make the risks worthwhile, so in doing this we are protecting each other – if we were just to turn them away, they will then use the same ID to get served in another venue illegally.

No, the bounced has no legal powers to do this and has probably sold it on already. His brother should phone the club and ask for it back.

probably sold it on already

to who?
for what?
never mind the inevitable cctv footage showing him taking it.. the risk to his job.. for what..?

£10.. £20 maximum..?

As Ste_t said. When I sent 2 years working on a city centre beat regularly on vomit patrol we ALWAYS got bouncers handing over DL and other forms of fake ID, to be fair that was one thing they were good at (even if their were rubbish/bad at other things)!! They can seize it. Youth has committed an offence under the identification cards act which in theory could have given him 2 years inside straight away do not pass go. I have seen numerous people actually get 2 years as well.

Oh and they can search (and refuse entry) anyone they want as the club is private property so they can turn you away because they don’t like the look of you!

Just because you work on a door doesn’t make you an evil, fake ID selling gangstar.
Perhaps, and it’s a long shot, but perhaps that’s the policy and is perfectly legal and correct?

As the licence owner isn’t (proved) guilty of anything, he should ring the club and ask for his licence back. If they refuse, they’ve then stolen his licence and he should act accordingly. No?

The only misdemeanour here is the lad trying to get into the club.

I’d report it to the police , he had no legal right to take the licence he’s just a door man

I’d report it to the police , he had no legal right to take the licence he’s just a door man

As far as the door man is concerned it’s a fake ID so surely it’s his duty to remove it?

No, it’s not his duty to remove it at all. It’s his duty to stop the underage getting into the club, he has no legal or moral rights to remove the ID, he should hand it back and say “nice try, see ya”. I’ve known plenty of bouncers give people a good kicking, but I’ve never known any take peoples property. I dare say they’ve no right to do a body search either unless the kid agreed. I’ll ask a friend of mine who manages a club for clarification.

Hmmmm! I’m not really sure on this one, but I do think it’s one of those grey areas that is going to polarise opinion and lead to an interesting dabate which may or may not result in insults being thrown and tags being written.
HTH.

Will the whining, bleeding-heart kittens (especially those who ignored M_C’s post) please follow this link, download the document and write to the Daily Mail with their subsequent rage?…..

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/alcohol/false-id/false-identity-guidance

It is a very clear read, details the offences that may be being committed and a very good thing indeed. No room for doubt there.

As usual, the role of parenting in this issue is being ignored.

What we used to do,and it is a few years ago now…Is confiscate any of the crap universal proof of age cards that you buy out of FHM etc and bin them(costs the wee scrotes 10-20 to replace them).Forged driving licenses,military cards, we would keep and pass on to the local bobby,as there are some REALLY good fakes.I asked a mate last night,still the same.
Poor wee innocent; he was trying to get into a club which could lose its licence,with the attendant job losses/costs,with somebody elses id? I wouldn’t be worried about the missing (I assume photocard) license just now.Nor would I try to get into the club for a couple of years as we all remember faces,print out pics of people like above kid.
I have also never heard about doormen selling ID,as is suggested by a couple of people above,worst case is doorman is busy with the 2000 people he gets through the door on a Fri/Sat and doesn’t have the time to spend on MTQG’s mates son to ensure he had an enjoyable customer experience,and so binned it….Oh and for all the folk giving air to their opinion to doormen.Have you seen what they keep out of clubs?

Sorry Graham; I do have an opinion 🙂

The benefit of getting older is you don’t have to go to clubs any more.

Gotta love the ones slating the young lad.

I bet you were a right bunch of boring farts in your teens – or are you just being sanctamonious?

Surely that wouldn’t happen on STW, would it?

Youth has committed an offence under the identification cards act……..could have given him 2 years inside

Laws like that are a complete waste of time as long as bouncers are a soft touch and don’t report known incidences for prosecution.

Lets hope fingers crossed, that the doorman passes all the details onto the police for prosecution.

Otherwise if I was the nightclub owner, I would sack the doorman for not doing his job properly.

On a more positive note MidlandGraham, obviously because of his age, your mate’s son won’t be facing an adult prison if held at Her Majesty’s pleasure. Try to reassure him.

Lets hope fingers crossed, that the doorman passes all the details onto the police for prosecution

that’s a joke right..?

Nope, it’s ernie.

Well there you go , every day’s a school day. I’d never even heard of that Act until this thread.

My lad did something similar to this. He managed to modify the year on his licence to 90 instead of the real 91. Local bouncer looked at the licence and compared the year to the bit in the driver number which also has the year of birth, and of course they didn’t match. My son’s obviously a good forger and a fool at the same time.

First I knew of it was a copper at the door handing me his licence back. Bouncer had handed it in after the shift.

They left it to me to, ahem, “return his licence to him”.

He won’t do that again.

Once saw a lad have his brother’s licence ripped into pieces on the steps of Rock City, rather worrying as we were relying on dodgy NUS cards at the time..

Couger, hambl90, cofeeking, onzadog, atlaz, thanks for your uniformed pointless posts, but your all wrong. (Especially those who posted after the copper)

Lets hope fingers crossed, that the doorman passes all the details onto the police for prosecution

“that’s a joke right..?”

A joke ……why would it be a joke ? The OP appears to be particularly concerned that the law be strictly applied, after all, he asks “Is this legal ?”.

I am simply agreeing with the OP that in this case the doorman should follow what is lawfully required from him, and pass on all relevant information, including the illegally used ID, to the police for prosecution. The plenty for which, will presumably be a lot more than the 20 quid for a replacement license that his mate’s son feels hard done by.

Unless of course I’ve misunderstood the OP and he feels that only the doorman should act in a legal manner, whilst he mate’s son can freely go about flouting the law as he so wishes …….but surely not, no one can be that hypocritical – can they ?

It’s quite common to confiscate drugs (then deny entry, obviously!), and then pass the drugs to their ‘inside people’ at the club for selling on.

It’s part of the business of being a doorman, especially from my experiences living in London…

Never heard of ID’s being confiscated with the intention of being sold on, although it wouldn’t surprise me – they are more connected to the ‘underground’ than you think…

By christ Ernie you’re being a tool today.

No shags last night?

yea a wise man takes his drugs before he goes in, or gets his girlfriend to store them some wear!