not at all ernie – I believe in sharing sovereignty. We are stronger in alliance with our neighbours. This means we have to share our sovereignty with them as they do with us.

There is nothing undemocratic about the EU parliament – its more legitimate than Westminster being a PR parliament.

I thought you would be a little more internationalist in your outlook Ernie.

As I say – just remember how it looks from up here – your argument about the EU equally applies to the union of the UK when seen from here.

Dear Leader likes him as he makes some good points. However his delivery is not as good as those by the spin doctors. If he only uses softer tone or gentle words he might be seen as champion of the masses. A straight talker his delivery does not measure up to those dangerous cunning two face back stabbers.

Democracy? If there is such thing as a true democracy then open up your boarder to the world, put your idealistic democratic principles into action. Let the global population join you, let them in, let them share your wealth.

🙄

TandemJeremy – Member

I believe in sharing sovereignty. We are stronger in alliance with our neighbours. This means we have to share our sovereignty with them as they do with us.

Shouldn’t that be sharing with the world? Why just share with minority – neighbours? Are you exercising double standards? Please share it with Asia, America (South particularly), Africa etc., after all they are all so in need of some good living. Please feed them.

As I say – just remember how it looks from up here – your argument about the EU equally applies to the union of the UK when seen from here.

so you want self determination from westminster but not from brussels ?

farage and wee eck are just two cheeks of the same arsehole aren’t they ?

It is not impossible to have both more/better local/regional democracy and a greater/stronger european political union.
Whilst within Europe the UK has delegated to the regional parliaments of Wales, NI and Scotland.
Dictatorial is a tad strong in describing Europe. One can argue the PM dictates as well and is not voted for by the people. You are correct as to why the soft left generally like Europe.

I want devolution of power down where possible and pooling of sovereignty where useful. If the EU run the macro economic policy and defense, everthing else gets devolved down to smaller units for fast and flexible response in government then the national parliaments eu wide have little role left.

So yes – I am in favour of a strong EU with scotland as a country within it in its own right.

I thought you would be a little more internationalist in your outlook Ernie.

Supporting continued membership of an exclusive club of select nations, does not fit in with my commitment to Proletarian Internationalism, and my duty to the cause of international solidarity 😀

#

farage and wee eck are just two cheeks of the same arsehole aren’t they ?

Hardly. Farage is a xenophobe, wee eck is a europhile. Farage belong of the right, we eck on the left. Wee eck supports the eu, farage hates furriners. We eck is smart, farge is thick

Ernie – normally you make a lot of sense on politics but I see little sense in your position here. Smacks of little englander to me.

Answer this:

As I say – just remember how it looks from up here – your argument about the EU equally applies to the union of the UK when seen from here.

Hardly. Farage is a xenophobe, wee eck is a europhile. Farage belong of the right, we eck on the left.

yeah but ultimately they want the same thing – as they see it – autonomy from foreign dominance.

the fact that wee eck is happy to rid scotland of influence from westminster only to be yolked to europe suggests that the motivation is probably as xenophobic as farage’s.

Yoked not yolked – and thats not how it is. Have you ever heard Eck speak on this? I doubt it ‘cos you would know the motivation is not xenophobic

One of the major issues at the moment is Scotland has no voice in the EU.

TandemJeremy – Member
farage and wee eck are just two cheeks of the same arsehole aren’t they ?

Hardly. Farage is a xenophobe, wee eck is a europhile. Farage belong of the right, we eck on the left. Wee eck supports the eu, farage hates furriners. We eck is smart, farge is thick

So are you. You are the other side of the same coin.

But then I love TJ with his sense of humour and his wacky idea of the world.

If you are so fair you should let the world population move with ease even if it means mass migration to where you live. Oh oh … did I hear something?

Your ideology is such that you want to be seen as a person that champion the cause of democracy/fairness but then you apply this ideology to a minority of “educated” elitists who defined democracy according to their own elitists’ view.

A true democracy is to open up. Fairness for all regardless of what they are. No question ask. Free flow of people and migration. Can you handle that?

😆

the motivation is probably as xenophobic as farage’s

xenophobia is fear of foreigners choosing foreigners [europeans] over countrymen [ UK and England] can not bee seen as xenophobia.
He may be anglophobic or a europhile bit not xenophobic.

Ernie ………… Smacks of little englander to me

My ultimate goal is autonomous societies which govern in a fully democratic manner and without outside interference – granted we are a very long way from that. But how does the EU help to achieve that goal ?

Applying your logic a “World Government” would be highly desirable and would fit your “internationalist outlook” requirements. And yet I cannot imagine anything more utterly undemocratic, and more highly repressive, than the nightmare scenario of a World Government.

Hmmmmmmmmm

Autonomous societies? How big? Can scotland get its self determination? Flanders? Bavaria? Catalonia?

TandemJeremy – Member

Hmmmmmmmmm

Autonomous societies? How big? Can scotland get its self determination? Flanders? Bavaria? Catalonia?

TJ, don’t be naughty … you have been ignoring me with your elitist view. Naughty, naughty boy. 😆

Are you ignoring global population? Is it because they have funny skin colours … hhmmmmm?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPmyIT_wphU&feature=mh_lolz&list=PL19550F9EA86C676C[/video]

Ernie is Rudi’s reincarnation and I claim my £5. 😉

chewkw – Member

Are you ignoring global population? Is it because they have funny skin colour … hhmmmmm?

Youknow what _ I couldn’t think of a decent answer to that or ernies similar point about world government.

No – I don’t want a world government and I don’t want the EU to expand geographically but I will need to take some time to ponder why.

I think the EU makes some sense as a supranational organisation as we share a common outlook, history and interest. Why and how this differs from xenophobia requires some thought

Autonomous societies? How big? Can scotland get its self determination? Flanders? Bavaria? Catalonia?

You are bogged down in seeing things only within the perimeters of a “state”. If you were a true internationalist, and not a little englander/scotlander, you would see beyond that.

You would also see that “the state” is far from being desirable, and it is a highly repressive structure which should eventually be dismantled, as human society reaches more advanced levels. The only purpose of the state is to provide the means to achieving the aims.

A single government of Europe, the Northern Hemisphere, or the World, does nothing to achieve that. Nor does it reflect a commitment to “internationalism”. In fact it does the complete reverse – on both counts.

not at all ernie – you gave this concept of “Autonomous societies”

I’d like a little more detail. How big do you see them and how do you see relations between them being organised.

TandemJeremy – Member

“chewkw – Member

Are you ignoring global population? Is it because they have funny skin colour … hhmmmmm? “

Youknow what _ I couldn’t think of a decent answer to that or ernies similar point about world government.

No – I don’t want a world government and I don’t want the EU to expand geographically but I will need to take some time to ponder why.

I think the EU makes some sense as a supranational organisation as we share a common outlook, history and interest. Why and how this differs from xenophobia requires some thought

Yes, that is a good honest answer. Democracy needs to be taken at a small prescribed dose – a bit like slow release medication. Taken too quickly may simply defeat its initial purpose. Human beings are maggots that will eat/destroy everything in its path. Some sort of boundary does not hurt for a greater good and so until such time as one can manage own affairs the idea of becoming part of a bigger family of EU superstate is actually defeating it’s initial goody goody objectives.

p/s: rain stopped now I am out to have a good time with SS 29er … see you guys later. All hail Dear Leader! All hail Dear Leader! 😆

“A long term process of worldwide emancipation” is the way Rudi Dutschke put it in that speech, Ernie.

TandemJeremy – Member

not at all ernie – you gave this concept of “Autonomous societies”

I’d like a little more detail. How big do you see them and how do you see relations between them being organised.

By “autonomous societies” I mean self-governing. I fully recognise that all state structures are by definition, repressive. And the eventual goal should be the abolition of the state. As society because more democratic and ‘the people’ make decisions and take on the responsibility to govern themselves, then the state has less of a role to play – obviously.

As I said, we are a very long way from that – but that’s no excuse for walking in the opposite direction.

And I have to no doubt whatsoever that human society will continue to evolve btw – it’s only the time-scale that’s in doubt. But eventually it will advance to levels totally different to the ones that exist today. We’ve come a long way, we’ve still a long way to go.

so no answer then to the two questions.

Sorry ernie – gonna have to press you on this. You can’t introduce a concept then refuse to define it

I have already defined autonomous societies : it is societies which govern themselves – look up the word “autonomous”.

The EU can play no part in that. In fact it can only hinder it. The EU exists to protect the status quo, and in fact consolidate and increase the powers of capital, and the state in who’s interests it serves.

So what sort of size do you envisage? villages? Cities? thousands of people? Billions?

How will relations between them be organised? How will resources be shared?

Or are your autonomous societies merely a buzzword that has no substance.

Agree with Ernie on the notion of the inherently repressive state, and the aspiration for ‘autonomous societies’…….but how backing the British state against the EU helps move in this direction I don’t get at all, so TJ is right to that degree.

However, ‘Fortress Europe’ is not much more attractive than little england/scotland/wherever. The man’s right – open the borders. Free movement of peoples as well as free movement of capital. That’s the way states start to get smashed, and internationalism is built. No more wrapping ourselves in the union jack or the EU stars. ‘Mad’, you say? Ultra-leftist? No, just knowing who our real friends are and who are our ultimate enemies.

Smacks of little englander to me.
Well that’s the tight scotch for yer.

The guy who made chairs, William Morris’ “Looking Backwards” describes an autonomous utopian society. It’s still worth a read. I see one of the victories of the EU is that it has imposed human rights standards on member states. Even my beloved France has been regularly rapped on the knuckles and people given retrials and/or fairer trials. We all benefit from an institution that limits the scope of memeber states for denying us our human rights.

but how backing the British state against the EU helps move in this direction I don’t get at all

It’s not a question of “backing the British state against the EU” it’s a question of backing the will of the British people against the EU (and needless to say also the will of people of other member states).

Free movement of peoples as well as free movement of capital. That’s the way states start to get smashed, and internationalism is built.

I am not interested in promoting the “internationalism” of Capitalism. The “free movement of capital” is merely to facilitate the exploitation of people in a less restrictive manner and to its maximum effect. As is the “free movement of people” which treats people with no more respect than a commodity.

The EU is designed to strengthen Capitalism – not weaken it. It does, and always will, place the needs of the market before the needs of the people. And as we know the needs of the market and the needs of the people do not by necessity converge.

Whilst Farrage gives a voice to the more fervant euro-sceptic Britons I find it hard to criticise him for saying out loud what many think deep down. My gripe is with the years of misleading anti-EU press and television that has led them to think that way.

Before Thatcher’s renegociation of the UK’s financial relationship with the Union there’s no doubt Britons were paying a high price for membership. Since then the relationship has been fairer and the anti-EU press in recent years has been toying with emotional reactions to issues of little consequence to build suspicion and even hatred of the institution that Farrage’s outbursts reflect. He is the symptom not the cause.

EU is a joke and someone is having a good laugh. 🙄

Consider all the inward investment into the UK since 72. How much of that capital would have gone to mainland Europe if Britain had not joined the Union. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Peugeot, fORD, BMW just for the auto companies in my head. No trade tarifs, no joke.

Ernie – I am afraid you have a completely logical fallacy going on here.

According to you Britain as a unit is OK and the people of britain must have self determination – but not the people of the EU or the people of Scotland. There is no logical reason why Britain is acceptable as a unit for self determination of the people but a larger or smaller unit is not.

Its not about being ruled from afar, its about pooling sovereignty for strength where we are stronger together

Many of us believe in the EU and see it as a force for good – but our self determination does not count to you. Nor does the wish for self determination count for the scots, the flemish, the catalans etc

According to you Britain as a unit is OK and the people of britain must have self determination – but not the people of the EU or the people of Scotland. There is no logical reason why Britain is acceptable as a unit for self determination of the people but a larger or smaller unit is not.

Well I don’t know who’s manifesto you’ve been reading – but it wasn’t mine 😀

I am perfectly relaxed concerning self determination for the people of the EU and the people of Scotland – I have no problem with that at all.

I believe in self-government and democracy, ie, all power should be in the hands of the people. The EU does not exist to provide that. It exists purely as a cartel to serve the interests of monopoly capitalism and to provide ‘sticky plasters’ to deal with the failures which are inherent to capitalism.

You have confused the need of capitalism to freely access all the markets within the member states, on the basis of equal potential through ‘harmonisation’, with social progress.

You have confused international solidarity and the legitimate goal of breaking down the barriers and frontiers which divide nations, with membership of an exclusive European club.

You have confused the struggles within nations for peace and social justice, with EU directives – there is no easy get-out clause to failing to win the political argument Overturning the general election result by demanding that the EU intervenes on political, economic, and social issues, is not the answer. Plus of course the EU would not tolerate a government of a member which was mandated by its people to protect their national interests. Remember that the bailout of the banks was illegal under EU law – we only got away with it because the situation was so dire. But so such exception will be made for our postal services, to give just one example.

If you want more detail on why the genuine left is opposed to the EU then look here :

http://no2eu.com/

.

And btw with reference to your completely misrepresentation of my views :

There is no logical reason why Britain is acceptable as a unit for self determination of the people but a larger or smaller unit is not.

How ‘large a unit’ are you prepared to go ? If a legislature for 27 countries is such a good idea then presumably a legislature for 54 countries is an even better idea …….and I’m sure that as a true “internationalist” who despises “little englanders” you wouldn’t want to exclude anyone (even though the EU clearly does) so let’s go for the big one – a world government. Would you support that ? Would that be democratic ? Tell me TJ how big – and why that size ?

Me in charge of the whole bloody lot.

Only Solution.