Long thread.
I'm having it. It won't neessarily protect me from something bad, as it's portrayed as a mild illness, generally. But as one of the frontliners dealing with immunosupressed diabetics, and lots of old biddies, with multiple co-morbidities, I feel it my duty try to help to protect them. Even if I don't have time to fully read into, or understand all of the ins and outs of it.
I also like being offered a biscuit after a jab.

Does anyone understand grantways posts?

Tinman – IMO that is the main thrust – to reduce potential sick leave.

Woody – situations like that are a part of my argument – there are much better public health measures that would reduce transmission risks that are not being done. a ban on all hospital visitors would be one or example and screening of all suspected Swine flu cases away from the district general hospitals.

Public health measures are effective and cheap – just not very glamorous and do make profits for drug companies.

cholera was not defeated by vaccination – it was defeated by the Victorian sewer works.

Vaccination has its place but I do not believe that blanket vaccination of health service workers is either needed or cost effective. Many other groups of workers could be vectors as well and might be more likely that many health service workers.

With half a million health service workers thats a lot of vaccine – IMO that would be better used giving it to at risk people.

I'm now curious about Hagi he has only posted in here and has never revealed his profession or interest in this?

I'm a long time lurker, I did post a few times in singletrack v1 under a different name but never got round to registering again.

As for my profession its not really relevant to the argument so I never mentioned it. But I'm actually a director in a pharmaceutical company 😈 woohahaha 😈 – I'm not really 😀

My real gripe and reason for posting on here is that most people arguing against mass vaccination are getting things the wrong way round.

By starting from the assumption that they are correct and that the experts are wrong their argument is pretty weak and hard to justify.

If they instead assumed that the people who have spent their lives studying this are correct, but there is a possiblity they could be wrong and trying to work out if there is any evidence to back up their niggling doubts then perhaps their argument would be a bit more convincing.

As it is, the only valid reason for not taking it that I've heard is for people who are known to have bad reactions or suffer allergies.

Just had it, no biscuit tho.

Hagi – my point is in part that actually people who want all healthcare workers vaccinated are getting it the wrong way round.

Its not for me to show why I do not want the vaccination – its for those who want me vaccinated to show why it is needed. The evidence is weak IMO.

The only valid reason for not wanting it is you don't want it – self determination remeber?

I have not

starting from the assumption that they are correct and that the experts are wrong

I started from the proposition " pursuade me this is a good idea" and they have not.

Its up to the pro vaccinators to prove their case – its not up to me to justify not having it. I am not saying its a waste of time – I am saying use the targetting effectivly and cost effectivly. The vaccine is in short supply – why waste a dose? let alone thousands of doses.

Hagi – my point is in part that actually people who want all healthcare workers vaccinated are getting it the wrong way round.

Its not for me to show why I do not want the vaccination – its for those who want me vaccinated to show why it is needed. The evidence is weak IMO.

The worlds leading experts in immunology and epidemiology disagree with you. You keep claiming the evidence is weak they don't agree.

The only valid reason for not wanting it is you don't want it – self determination remeber?

That isn't a valid reason – not taking it just because you don't want it can have a very real impact on the effectiveness of the vaccination program and can cost lives. I'm very happy for people to opt out if they can justify their reasons for doing so.

The vaccine is in short supply – why waste a dose? let alone thousands of doses.

I agree with this point – until we can manufacture enough doses to offer it to everybody, it needs to be targetted at those most at risk, and then those likely to contact at risk groups.

Just had it, no biscuit tho.

Not even a pink wafer, thats lame!

it needs to be targetted at those most at risk, and then those likely to contact at risk groups.

And more importantly, those who we need to be fit and well to effectively treat those who aren't.

Physician, heal thyself and all that.

Not even a pink wafer, thats lame!

The biscuit is probably as big an allergy risk as the jab 😀

"The vaccine is in short supply – why waste a dose? let alone thousands of doses."

I agree with this point – until we can manufacture enough doses to offer it to everybody, it needs to be targetted at those most at risk, and then those likely to contact at risk groups.

Which does not include me!

Not frontline staff, so no.

Which does not include me!

Indeed – if you read my posts I agreed with you somewhere back on page 1 or 2. 🙂

so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?

I also strongly believe that people have the right to refuse medical treatment and any compulsory or coerced treatment needs a far greater threat and level of proof of need than we currently have.

so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?

Care to point me to where I have?

I also strongly believe that people have the right to refuse medical treatment

Indeed they do – but when their actions can directly affect the health of others then I believe they should be able to justify why before they choose not to.

coerced treatment needs a far greater threat and level of proof of need than we currently have.

Nobody is being coerced yet (at least not in the UK anyway).

so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?

You could have just said a simple 'no' and walked away 😉

As for compulsory treatment, the list of diseases I needed vaccinations for (or show immunity to) as part of my terms of employment were tetanus, TB, anthrax, hepA, hepB and rabies – fortunately not all at once 😯

It was a case of want the job, have the jab and I had no problem with that at all, there are rights far more precious to me than to be able refuse treatment (as part of my job) which will protect my health and limit disease transmission…….

No biscuit here either 😥 I'd have had it twice for a pink wafer!

hilldodger – Member

so why give me such a hard time about not having it then?

You could have just said a simple 'no' and walked away

One day I will learn. Maybe

One day I will learn. Maybe

but you love it really don't you – and so do we 😉
If everyone agreed how dull life would be !!!

LOL Tandem Whos picking on you

Thing is this rush for frontline is prety pointless
has to what one calls Frontline.

What about the porter that takes you in and around the hospital
Also they can normaly be partime and serve more than onne hospital and upto the amount of Hostpitals within that borough.

What about the Maintanence crews that work in all the hospitals within that borough, so they have to go between hospitals.
Also what about the Contacted out workman/woman who maintain and build.

And then you have the Doctors etc who do the same rounds from one hospital to the next.

The frontline now I regard more is the Porters and Maintenace crews and builders
has these you will find mix amongst and travel with the people who are more to have the Swine Flu in the first place.

But my personal and honest oppinion I will not have the Vaccine
and thats from most of the Pharmacys I know within London and the Doctors and Nurses I know too.

But as important as those people are grantway (the Hostpitals porters, Maintanence crews and the Contacted out workman/woman), it's the Doctors and Nurses that will actually be treating people that are the most essential.

Without them there is no hospital.

So that's why they would generally get one of the first waves of vaccine in any pandemic.

GrahamS – would you tell my managers that & the information dept – as I don't think thay are aware

Again there is frontline & then front line – as a nurse I have face to face contact with patient (service users) – who are in the main physically fit & well (although may have multiple chronic physical health problems) they are not at any increased risk from me as they are from any other memeber of the public who they may come across – equily my risk from them is much the same as it is with anybody else

GrahamS – would you tell my managers that & the information dept – as I don't think thay are aware

Same story in every job eh? Up the workers etc. 😀

they are not at any increased risk from me as they are from any other memeber of the public who they may come across – equily my risk from them is much the same as it is with anybody else

Yep, but there is still the other consideration of who would look after these patients with "multiple chronic physical health problems" if there was an outbreak and half your regions nurses and doctors were bedridden with the flu?

Graham S your looking again but at a Value
But its the common worker thats going to spread the Flue has to say
has there more chance of catching it IE Life style,habitat and travel.

The Doctors and nurses have been given Plastic throw away
Gowns and masks plus and the usual latex gloves and Alcohol based hand gel and this has been increased around all Hospitals and Day centres.

What they do advise is that you stand a least 1 metre away from the peron/persons you are talking to.

Its quiet simple who will look after these people when ill
They get in agency workers in as tempoarary cover.
This is normal practise.

grantway in my case, I take my wife into hospital and out again, so she sees me, and then the frontline nurses who administer her antibody treatment. So in our case id rather they be vaccinated….

we are just one example tho

But my personal and honest oppinion I will not have the Vaccine
and thats from most of the Pharmacys I know within London and the Doctors and Nurses I know too.

not meaning to sound offensive, but i have met doctors and pharmacists and even one of her previous consultants, whom i wouldnt trust to make me a sandwich, let alone allow to influence my thinking on this issue (or any issue).

cant believe there are people who believe hearsay over the CDC and NHS experts, but hey it takes all sorts i suppose.

Graham S your looking again but at a Value

Sorry, but pardon? Do you ever post anything that doesn't sound like a cross between a riddle and a copy-editor's nightmare? 😕

I think you might be accusing me of saying that doctors and nurses are generally more valuable? I'm not. I'm saying that in a proper outbreak of a pandemic, I would rather have doctors and nurses available than builders.

If there is a sudden outbreak of house shortages then I'd rather have builders.

its the common worker thats going to spread the Flue has to say
has there more chance of catching it IE Life style,habitat and travel

I don't think that's true. Mainly because I don't think the "Life style,habitat and travel" of doctors and nurses is that much different from the "common worker" (other than possibly working longer hours and being exposed to more ill people).

The Doctors and nurses have been given Plastic throw away Gowns

My wife is a doctor, she wears her own clothes to work and is expected to wash any blood, sweat and fluids off them at home in our washing machine. 😐

That is fairly typical for doctors I believe.

Its quiet simple who will look after these people when ill
They get in agency workers in as tempoarary cover.
This is normal practise.

"Agency workers" are just other doctors and nurses – there isn't a limitless supply of them. In fact in some districts it can be hard getting enough locum cover for normal day-to-day running of the hospital.

Not hearsay these are people who I know more than hello Doc
Ive got a cold.
Thats fine tim but what about the things shes touching.
What they call invisable germs?

NHS experts LOL bit like the Tory Prat that told everyone Beef at the time was safe and gave a burger to his kid to prove it was safe But then it was'nt!
I would not believe them if you paid me most of my clients are in media and press or number crunching in the square mile they tell more than I need to know so No I wont take the jab/vaccine

…most of my clients are in media and press or number crunching in the square mile..

So people who have a first-rate understanding of epidemiology and virology then? 🙄

Yep, that's who I'd get my impartial medical advice from: journalists and accountants.

well yes when One is the Science editor for the Times

Its quiet simple who will look after these people when ill
They get in agency workers in as tempoarary cover.
This is normal practise.

Hmmm, good luck with that, I've ran three shifts short in the last 7 days, as I couldn't get agency cover. I wouldn't want to be relying on this when it becomes

a complete Hollywood style nightmare.

* Then it would need paying for 😐

On a quick tot up I've got about 85% of my team booked in for the jab, and this would be higher but for those on leave/ sick etc, and a few of the slow to chase after.

*disclaimer – much as I would love such a scenario, especially as I would be hoping for some Hollywood style love interest, I'm struggling to picture it. Although it is my favourite lol STW quote of the year to press!

well yes when One is the Science editor for the Times

could he edit your posts?

You mean this science editor of the times?

Mark Henderson? Well I'm sure a Science Editor is probably a qualified expert in all aspects of science, rather than say a generalist who needs to cover everything from climate change to shuttle launches and human cloning to swine flu.

What does he have to say:

Is there a problem with developing the vaccine so quickly? How is it being tested?

The European Medicines Agency has strict processes for licensing pandemic vaccines, but these could be cut to only five days if stocks are needed urgently.

In 1976, a vaccination programme was launched in the United States after an outbreak in Fort Dix, New Jersey.

The strain killed one person and put 13 in hospital, but side-effects from the vaccine caused paralysis and 25 deaths.

Virologists emphasise that procedures for developing and testing pandemic vaccines have moved on. More than 40,000 doses of the vaccine on which the swine flu vaccine is based have been given without any safety concerns. “Mock versions”, containing proteins from the H5N1 avian flu, have been tested with no serious side-effects.

— The Times, Swine flu and vaccination: questions and answers, July 21, 2009

well yes when One is the Science editor for the Times

i just re read your post, are you referring to yourself as one, there?

*Toff accent on

"well my good man, I have a spiffing mastery of the English language, one is the Editor of the Times, dont you know?"

*Toff accent off

GrahamS – Member

Mark Henderson? Well I'm sure a Science Editor is probably a qualified expert in all aspects of science….

You'd think so wouldn't you, but he's has neither a single science qualification nor any experience of science at academic or practical level – he does have a rather spiffing history degree from Oxford though and is a thoroughly splendid chap, what what……

..science journalists, I've shat'em 😆

Well ain't getting mine now I'm doing interviews the day their visiting my station. 😆

Graham S good chatting with you but cannot say no more

Lieth Hill is a good place to ride 😉

Have you said too much? Are you a spy?

Well that explains the riddles and the coded messages I suppose.

Don't worry old bean, mum's the word.

Lieth Hill is a good place to ride

The "trails" in the "Forest of Dean" are "many and muddy".
Beware the red fox.

Just back from Hollywood…. 😉

…with a sore arm.

As I said, the problem is less the actual disease, and more the effect it is having on critical care services by taking up a percentage of already rare critical beds…

I've had the jab because we are already struggling to staff our unit thanks to illness, and this in turn increases the pressure on both staff and services.

I've had it too because I've seen how ill people can be when they have it, and I don't want to get that ill.

I also strongly believe that people have the right to refuse medical treatment and any compulsory or coerced treatment needs a far greater threat and level of proof of need than we currently have.

……….

…..and would be in contravention of the European Human Rights Act !

Unless 'they' could prove that by refusing to have the jab you were obviously not of sound mind and therefore incapable of making that rational decision 8)

Back to thread. No i wont be getting the jab. Our LHB (that's the welsh for primary care trust) in their wisdom have decided that all GP practice workers have to travel 15miles during working hours to get immunised. The likelehood that our staff will get covered then is slim. I have pointed out to the LHB that this is bonkers especially in view of the fact GP practices immunise their staff for normal seasonal flu.

So after months of pandemic planning our local learned infectious disease wizards have decided it will be a good idea to make it difficult for frontline staff to get immunised. this is going to decrease rates of frontline staff covered. Am i going to cancel a surgery to get this jab no… if i could get this done at the surgery i work which is immunising patients currently then yes. welcome to the crazy world of the nhs. And oh yes weve had a dictat from above telling us not to use our swine flu vaccine on ourselves or our staff unless we are patients of the practice and in an at risk group!