Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 110 total)
  • NHS Staff – is more pay the answer?
  • FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    For me no, don’t get me wrong I would like/could do with more pay.

    However, IMO it’s just the failure of politicians f to understand what is happening in the NHS 🙁 labour know Consevatives are screwing the NHS, and reckon this could be a vote winner, don’t insult the intelligence of NHS workers!

    Some specialties would benefit and stop the movement of staff from NHS to Private however to do that would be a massive % increase i.e. £1,000’s per employee not just the odd 0.5% here or there!

    makecoldplayhistory
    Free Member

    I think the mess that the NHS is in comes from Labour and PFI.

    Increased salaries might be a good thing but money is a short term motivator and the NHS needs saving so that people are pleased with what they’re delivering. I wonder if at some point a government will have to bite the bullet and buyout the PFI. Having a devolved NHS has robbed it of its greatest benefits which were collective bargaining power and economies of scale, especially with regard to administration.

    I’m not sure Conservatives are screwing the NHS and suspect even Corbyn’s best line is “It is Labour’s mess so give us the chance to fix it”.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “Some specialties would benefit and stop the movement of staff from NHS to Private however to do that would be a massive % increase i.e. £1,000’s per employee not just the odd 0.5% here or there!”Some specialties would benefit and stop the movement of staff from NHS to Private however to do that would be a massive % increase i.e. £1,000’s per employee not just the odd 0.5% here or there!”

    Good point I hadn’t thought of that.

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    bruneep
    Full Member

    Slightly irratates me when they bang on about NHS. Other PS workers have suffered zero pay rises/pay cuts continually over the years.

    2 PS workers in this house.

    My wife isn’t that poorly paid. Earns more part time than I do full time. But her working conditions are shocking. Many managers at her work needs think of their staff and conditions more than shuffling paper.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Agree. Ring fencing really pisses me off. If they’d hadn’t ring fenced the NHS the other cuts would hardly have been noticeable. That’s democracy though.

    Nobeerinthefridge
    Free Member

    Mrs has been a nurse for years, always says she wouldn’t want it higher paid as it would attract the wrong type, I can kinda see her point.

    It doesn’t seem a pay issue, more of a bursting at the seems issue, In England and Wales anyway, we don’t see the same under-performance up here I believe.

    cranberry
    Free Member

    We would all like a little extra cash, we could all find a way of spending that extra, but the extra pound that goes in the pocket of staff is a pound taken away from patient care and I think that most people would agree that the money should be spent on patients.

    wl
    Free Member

    There’s no doubt that resources are overstretched, and I think that includes many staff being overworked (or possibly underpaid, depending on positions). More staff would definitely help matters. Part of the problem might be mismanagement, but the bigger part in underfunding. It’s very simple: if we want a good NHS with adequate resources to meet growing demand, we need to pay more for it. Higher taxes (and recouping unpaid taxes from business) is pretty much inevitable for this. I’m happy with that. Anyone who tells you this isn’t the situation is either in ill informed, in denial or pulling the wool over the electorate’s eyes. Exactly the same with schools, where ‘per-head’ funding is shrinking, despite Government claims.

    daniel_owen_uk
    Free Member

    Don’t get me started on that ring fencing rubbish.

    Yeah lets ring fence NHS budgets and then cut social care budgets, adding extra strain on the NHS! That makes sense.

    As for pay, I wouldn’t say no, this year my pay increase meant I took home an extra £23 a month…. so paid for the petrol to Llandegla, not sure how I am getting home 😉

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Youve got to increase staff numbers somehow

    I collect cancer samples from operations in several hospitals across london, so get a weekly email of whats coming up, some hospitals (usually those in special measures) are constantly cancelling ops due to lack of beds and staff, ive been doing the job for 3 years and this is by far the worst ive ever seen it, some patients have consented to our study, so i get updates on their status, then had urgent ops cancelled multiple times.

    Reintroducing bursaries for nurses is essential, theres record numbers quiting and 10s of thousands of nursing places unfilled

    the weak £ (+ brexit uncertainty) means we are less attractive to foreign staff that are essential to keep the NHS running and I know of several Jr Docs who have left for sunnier climes (and easier rotas) over Jeremy Hunt & the contract changes.

    bruneep
    Full Member

    but the extra pound that goes in the pocket of staff is a pound taken away from patient care and I think that most people would agree that the money should be spent on patients.

    But at the rate staff are leaving at my wife’s work there will be no one left to look after the patients.what do you do then?

    Ah yes agency staff who cost way more than my wife’s rate.

    So many have left and went on bank staff earn more do shifts you want to do and the NHS staff are left to fill in the shit shifts.

    ctk
    Free Member

    Policy Announcement Day 4: bring our health spend per capita in line with other western european countries.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Nope, increasing nurses pay in of itself will make litttle difference.

    NHS needs a lot more more money for everything including pay. I recently had a long chat with a Junior Doctor keen to get into finance. His pay is ludicrously low and it will never change until politicians of all sides get realistic with the public about what its going to take finaicially to fund the health care we want. He is a very smart hard working guy and his talents will be much better rewarded outside of the NHS, he is fed up and not interested in medicine abroad.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Policy Announcement Day 4: bring our health spend per capita in line with other western european countries.

    The main problem in the UK is the below average private spend. Its perfectly normal in the rest of Europe to pay something towards your vists to the doctor / hospital. They have much higher taxes too btw. That is not enough in of itself.

    EDIT: we have discussed this before and I am repeating what I have posted before

    See this link (I can’t post variois charts as photobucket is not working properly)

    We soend 8.5% gdp and EU average in 10.1 as they have higher private spending as public/private is properly integrated and state does not pay 100% for many treatments / visits

    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2016/01/how-does-nhs-spending-compare-health-spending-internationally

    eskay
    Full Member

    I think just keeping wages up with inflation would be a good idea, this has not happened for years (probably the same with other PS workers apart from MPs)

    kelvin
    Full Member

    More staff is the answer.
    The nurses I know are all looking to leave the NHS due to understaffing… a vicious circle.

    Is renumeration the answer to the staffing problem?
    There are other things I’d look to first, but if it was any other “industry” we’d all assume pay was key.

    Kahurangi
    Full Member

    As loath as I am to join the party, a pay rise isn’t even taking a sticking plaster to a gushing wound.

    It’ll take several parliamentary terms to undo the damage that Jeremy Hunt has done to the NHS workforce. I’d suppose looking at training numbers (unclusing UCAS applications) would give some foresight..

    wl
    Free Member

    One thing’s for sure, Theresa May opening up our NHS to US firms isn’t going to help matters. That’s why she isn’t exactly shouting about this move – it’s something she stealthily agreed to as part of her ass-kissing of Trump now that we’re out of Europe and beholden to America. Then Trump quickly and unsurprisingly dumped on us. Genius.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Is renumeration the answer to the staffing problem?
    There are other things I’d look to first, but if it was any other “industry”, we’d all assume pay was key.

    Yup. But as FunkyDunc says, the kind of pay rise that would actually make a difference is a world away from the payrise that is possible.

    I’m guessing the other problem is there are probably pay rules that prevent the NHS offering new starters more than existing staff. In the private sector if you’re short of staff you can offer new interviewees 20pc more and recruit new staff fast without increasing your existing staff pay at all so the impact on your overall salary bill is negligable.

    deviant
    Free Member

    Yes, more pay would help.

    As much as we like to think about selfless nurses, paramedics, physios etc working for peanuts due to the love of the job the reality is quite different.

    Just had my annual appraisal, my manager described me as a paramedic second to none, said he’s desperate not to lose me and I’m well liked in the job…..all nice to hear but doesn’t pay for a holiday this year, or put a motorbike in my garage etc.
    Work has to be about more than just the job itself.

    This week alone (and it’s only Wednesday) I’ve had offers from private providers willing to pay between £35 – £50 per hour for my skills.
    I could work 2, maybe 3 times a week and earn more than I do full time in the NHS!

    It’s seriously tempting, now if the NHS were to give me a 10k pay rise (never gonna happen) I’d happily sit tight and see out my remaining years with it.

    That’s the real battle the NHS has right now, a lot of good staff are wondering why they slog and stress for £20k – £30k a year when they could move into the private sector and double their money overnight.

    FunkyDunc
    Free Member

    Just slightly OT for this thread, since introduction of the new Jnr Doc contract, pay costs have gone up. Dr’s are now claiming for every hour worked, and more worryingly saying that there shift has finished, see ya!

    Another roaring success and culture change for the better….

    DezB
    Free Member

    Mrs has been a nurse for years, always says she wouldn’t want it higher paid as it would attract the wrong type, I can kinda see her point.

    Lucky woman. My friend has had a pay freeze since 2011 and got 1% this year. (Equates to a 25% pay cut.) Money is about the same as I was on in 1990. For NURSING! With University degrees! I didn’t even get A Levels. Its insane.

    theres record numbers quiting and 10s of thousands of nursing places unfilled
    Not at all surprising given the conditions.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    . In the private sector if you’re short of staff you can offer new interviewees 20pc more and recruit new staff fast without increasing your existing staff pay at all so the impact on your overall salary bill is negligable.

    Good luck with that. Is there a faster way to lose key and experienced staff than this approach?

    As I said, they are other things that need addressing first as regard NHS staffing, pay isn’t top of any one’s list, but you wouldn’t rule it out when looking at staffing in any other “industry”, so don’t for one of our most vital ones.

    kerley
    Free Member

    Good luck with that. Is there a faster way to lose key and experienced staff than this approach?

    That approach relies on people not knowing each other’s salaries so is a non-starter in NHS where bands and associated salaries are clear to everyone (which is a good thing)

    binners
    Full Member

    Is renumeration the answer to the staffing problem?

    ‘The Market’ gets to decide everything doesn’t it? That’s the gospel? The unimpeachable mantra? The truism that cannot be questioned?

    Well we’ve been told consistently for decades that unless we pay bankers and boardroom execs increasingly obscene sums of money then they’ll simply up sticks and go and work for someone else.

    Yet giving a mass of people year-on-year pay freezes, so effectively a pay cut, shouldn’t elicit the same decision making process

    Just the usual selective capitalism ideology being applied

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    Is renumeration the answer to the staffing problem?

    I suspect that Jeremy thinks it is – “we have more nurses on the wards now” (than on August 12th 2003 at 3.13 am) etc

    Unless you meant remuneration ? No, no, no – that’ll never do !

    <applies for flashheart junior pedant badge>

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “(which is a good thing)”

    Unless you want to recruit in which case it makes it eye wateringly expensive

    rone
    Full Member

    Well we’ve been told consistently for decades that unless we pay bankers and boardroom execs increasingly obscene sums of money then they’ll simply up sticks and go and work for someone else.

    Too right.

    You need to pay the money to get the best talent goes the free market saying.

    So why doesn’t it apply here?

    just5minutes
    Free Member

    One thing’s for sure, Theresa May opening up our NHS to US firms isn’t going to help matters.

    The NHS “opened up” to US firms under Blair / Brown – that’s when the likes of Humana first opened for business in the UK. What’s happened in the interim is that the level of private sector activity in the NHS has changed very little in % terms – from around 5% when Labour left office to around 6.5% now. So opening the NHS for business to US firms has actually had almost no effect.

    On the other points above:

    – The NHS is struggling in Scotland and Wales, so its problems aren’t just reflective of the national government because Labour run it in Wales and the SNP north of the border.
    – the GDP comparison isn’t always a reliable one because if some EU systems include social care costs in overall spending whereas in the UK a lot of social care budgets sits with Councils and is thus reported seperately. So the real UK figure is somewhat higher and closer to the EU average.
    – Patient co-pay or insurance has to be part of the discussion in order to reduce the inappropriate use of NHS resources – but this needs to be done in a way whereby people who are in need of care don’t see it as a barrier.
    – More pay won’t increase capacity or flow of patients. Even if Labour do succeed in closing down private sector provision the number of qualified staff will remain the same.

    I’d like to see some policy that:
    Takes any increased funding to create more posts in order to relieve the pressure on staff. As others have said many people have had low / no pay rises for many years now, often on salaries that are far lower than the NHS and without the additional benefits of a defined benefit pension.
    Transforms the way the NHS operates – getting things right first time and learning from its mistakes more quickly – the £56B provision for NHS negligence is an obscene waste of money and reflects the significant numbers of patients who die or come to harm due to often quite basic oversights in care
    Harnesses technology to remove waste and duplication
    Uses the resources that are already there more efficiently e.g. diverting some of the excess primary care workload to community pharmacies which are often open longer than GP surgeries and staffed by pharmacists who could easily take a significant share of the primary care burden.

    whatyadoinsucka
    Free Member

    no

    when i worked in the nhs 15 years ago i remember staff would leave on a friday and come back on the same ward as agency staff.

    How about putting rules around agency fees, capping the maximum an agency can make by placement and or hourly fees.

    the nhs will never have enough money but it could be managed far better and avoid the bulk of money going into the fatcats pockets whether thats management, agency supplying nursing staff, third party suppliers or the various funding strategies of the past few decades.

    GPs/consultants are earning huge sums (2/3 final salary pensions on top) and the shortage is due to being able to retire a wealthy lifestyle at a young age and/or earn on the side privately.

    why havent we scrapped final salary pensions for new starters, its been a pack of cards stacked high for years,

    rone
    Full Member

    NHS needs a lot more more money for everything including pay

    I thought that was being proposed here. More money for staff?

    And in your text the Junior Doctor will clear off to be better rewarded?

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “So why doesn’t it apply here?”

    It does, that’s why there’s a shortage of nurses.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    whatyadoinsucka – restrictions on agency pricing/staffing already exist.
    just5minutes – staff are leaving to go to other countries, or leaving healthcare completely.

    just5minutes
    Free Member

    just5minutes – staff are leaving to go to other countries, or leaving healthcare completely.

    This is certainly true in Primary Care (with around 3/4 of all GPs now working part time) but simply reflects the level of pay is such that many doctors have chosen to work less because they don’t need the extra pay or pension contributions.

    In Secondary Care I suspect that staff are leaving for a number of reasons, the principle one being that of the experience of working in an often pressured and chaotic environment. Simply paying more or adding staff won’t address the underlying root cause which is lack of organisation, failure to address the real issues impacting the flow of patients from A&E to wards, or the lack of effective working / integration with social care.

    There’s also a plank missing to the policies of all 3 main parties in England namely that of transforming the health of the population by things like:

    – encouraging more walking / cycling to school, work and shops etc
    – tipping the balance on food consumption to make the most unhealthy choices far more expensive
    – encouraging employers to create workplaces where physical and mental wellbeing is seen as a real responsibility
    – addressing the obesity / diabetes time bomb head on with a nationwide strategy

    scud
    Free Member

    My wife works in dosimetry in the radiotherapy department at our local NHS hospital, whilst pay will always be an issue, the NHS requires both more funding and cutting out of wasteful middle-managers and becoming a lot more efficient overall, there is so much wastage it’s daft.

    She previously worked at a large Surrey hospital where they paid a “London retention bonus” as it was not far for staff to travel into London and earn a lot more, this got cut, staff unsurprisingly went to London and they plugged the gaps with agency staff and at much higher pay rate and agency fees.

    On the cancer ward she works on now, the ridiculous targets mean that instead of treating the most urgent patients first with cord compression’s and the like, they often have to treat patients with a lot less aggressive and urgent cancers over them because they have been waiting longer, despite the fact they don’t need to be seen as quickly. They then have them working weekends at time and a half to catch on urgent patients because the scheduling has been taken out of their hands due to the daft targets they’ve been set. Often they have her “on call” at weekends to go in to treat an urgent patient which for us living in a rural area with no mobile reception outside of our house in a 15 mile radius, means we are stuck at home waiting for the phone to ring.

    bails
    Full Member

    How about putting rules around agency fees, capping the maximum an agency can make by placement and or hourly fees.

    Already done.

    avoid the bulk of money going into the fatcats pockets

    I think the bulk of NHS money pays for substantive nurses and medics.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    In Secondary Care I suspect that staff are leaving for a number of reasons, the principle one being that of the experience of working in an often pressured and chaotic environment. Simply paying more or adding staff won’t address the underlying root…

    Pressure of understaffing can most certainly be alleviated by recruiting more staff, or more petenant to the current situation, be exasperated by losing more staff.

    DrP
    Full Member

    GPs/consultants are earning huge sums (2/3 final salary pensions on top) and the shortage is due to being able to retire a wealthy lifestyle at a young age and/or earn on the side privately.

    As a GP I earn well. No doubt about it.
    However, with my skills (decision making, actions etc) and ‘personality’ I could probably earn £150+ in a city/market job, but i don’t really want to do that.

    However, I think the reason people are leaving the GP profession (or, more sepcifically, no longer withing to take up partnership roles – the cornerstone of running primary care) is that, simply put, people don’t want the workload and hastle any more.

    I’ve friends and colleagues earning more than I do (they’re on about £85-100/hr) as locums – they turn up, work 8-1300, and go home.
    I come in at 0730 on a Wednesday and ‘mop up’ all the work they haven’t done.
    They see the pateints (which can be fun) and then stamp out their cards.

    For each hour of patinet contact, there’s AT LEAST 1 – 1.5 hours of ‘background’ work need doing.

    People don’t want that, so they don’t do it.

    If my practice received more money, I’d buy a travers ti frame employ more staff to do paperwork/audits/etc etc – this would free me up for more patinet contact, and it’d be win win.
    I employ more people, and enjoy my job more.

    Don’t think every penny coming into a system goes to ‘fat cats’..

    DrP

    BigButSlimmerBloke
    Free Member

    More staff is the answer.
    The nurses I know are all looking to leave the NHS due to understaffing… a vicious circle

    this. Over the past few years, I’ve been landed with a few extra jobs, nothing much just a thing here and there but they add up, and with no extra staff resources, nothing gets done as well as it should. We’ve also had key staff leaving and not being replaced for 3 months during which time the workload is moved on to someone else who gets stressed overworked. Clinical staff retiring now sy they would not recommend the NHS as a career, and as much as I have a job I enjoy, I’m not sure I would. And none of this is to do with wages.

    BigButSlimmerBloke
    Free Member

    His pay is ludicrously low and it will never change

    As a specialised trainee, (Specialist registrar) the rate is from £30k to £47k and as a consultant between £76,761 and £103,490 as a basic salary with additional on-call and private work work available.
    An earning potential of £100k+ is not what i would call ludicrously low, and although junior doctors seem low, they are effectively trainees.

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