If you Google Alison Adams, a dentist who accidentally touched some mercury and became very ill.

That’s a bit like implying motorways are dangerous because someone once got hurt laying the tarmac for one.

On reflection I guess the reduction of risk to dentists and the reduction of risk for the harmful disposal of mercury (didn’t realise that crematorium were the biggest single pollutant of mercury) are good reasons to look for alternatives but actively getting rid of a perfectly sound amalgam filling would be folly and anecdotal health improvements of someone doing so is as likely to be a placebo effect or coincidence as a genuine benefit(unless they are one of a very small percentage of the population who have an allergic reaction to an element in amalgam but in a very mild form).

When I was a kid, I spent many a happy hour playing with mercury.

Me too. My primary teacher poured a little onto our palms and we passed it from one to the next. He made us wash our hands afterwards so that’s ok!

We weren’t quite that bad but when someone broke a thermometer in science class instead of evacuating the building, the teacher showed it to us all pouring it from beaker to beaker……

We also used to happily splash about in aromatic solvents at my first job – never did us any harm, etc.

I would strongly advice take take out insurance and pit a few quid away to pay the dentist before claiming the insurance.

Just consider it a tax.

blimey, didnt expect two pages, but thanks for all the info, i understand it better now. ill ring a few dentists and ask for private prices, see how they compare individually and take it from there.

cheers

Slight aside but the phrase “mad as a hatter” originates from the toxic effects on milliners of using mercury to felt hats a couple of centuries ago!

The other thing to note is that NHS dental practices are all privately or corporately owned businesses that contract with the NHS to provide the service which is not the way GPs or hospitals were originally funded.

? I believe that it is exactly how GP’s have always been (and usually still are) funded.

It’s not the same though.

GP practices have historically been paid a “capitation” payment based on the size of population they serve. They also receive central funding for things like the NHS computer system etc. Although they are incredibly busy, the hour to hour financial pressures are not the same. They also don’t need the same amount of very costly equipment or materials to provide the service.

GPs themselves are paid a nationally agreed salary. Most dentists, even non-practice owning ones , are self employed subcontractors paid based on a percentage of the fees they collect and the associated costs.

Dental practices were always paid on an item of service arrangement for the actual treatments provided. The money to open and equip the practice and the whole financial risk (which is considerable) has always been carried by the dentist themselves.

Admittedly the model for GP practices and hospitals has been pushed further towards this over the years.

The business choice most practice owners are faced with is

1. Work very very hard and quickly to a point where your stress levels are high and you are compromising the time or quality of the job you do and still be worrying about keeping the bank magager from your door under a system that year on year expects you to provide more for the same income into your business.

2. Charge more for your service and move outside the NHS. Be more in control of your working life, See fewer patients, have more time with each one, have a slightly less stressful working life and get to use more expensive and complex treatments (which is more interesting as a clinician too) and keep your bank manager happier.

Given a choice most people, however much they believe they ought to be able to provide NHS dentistry to everyone, would choose 2

Also worth pointing out that private dental practices don’t really generate more profit than NHS ones as businesses according to the figures over the last number of years.

Slight aside but the phrase “mad as a hatter” originates from the toxic effects on milliners of using mercury to felt hats a couple of centuries ago!

The lasting effects are still apparent in Stockport at the weekend.

Cougar – something for you to chew on.

Totally looks like a credible source, that.

Mercury is relatively inert in itself, but doesn’t stop it being highly toxic as a heavy metal the body is intolerant to. It’s well established that amalgam fillings release mercury vapour over the lifetime they are in the mouth (FDA amongst others acknowledge this), though claims are the levels are safe.

True. But the levels we’re talking about are minute. Like I said, you’re going to be exposed to more mercury by eating a tuna sandwich. And AIUI, the act of removing amalgam filings will cause more exposure than if you left them alone.

If you Google Alison Adams, a dentist who accidentally touched some mercury and became very ill.

I Googled “Alison Adams mercury” and the first hit was here: http://www.electricsense.com/9737/natural-recovery-plan-radiation/

She’s a “naturopath” (whateverTF that is) who’s selling books. The opening gambit here states “From birth Alison suffered from chronic digestive, endocrine, musculoskeletal and hearing problems. As she grew older other allergies and sensitivities were added to the list along with reproductive problems and almost constant infections.”

She then spilled some mercury once and concluded that was the reason she was ill. Now, it’s entirely possible that she did have some sort of adverse reaction to it, but extrapolating that to “I touched mercury therefore fillings cause chronic fatigue, ME and fibromyalgia” is mince of the highest order. See epicyclo’s and convert’s posts up there for a start. ^^ I’ve played with mercury as a kid too, and I’ve yet to become chronically ill (quiet at the back).

She then goes on to talk about a theory of the “mouth electric,” based on the notion that fillings contain different metals like a battery. So, y’know, she either has no concept of what a ****ing compound or is being wilfully deceitful in order to sell books.

Oh, and I almost overlooked the site doing that write-up. It’s to help people with “electromagnetic sensitivity” (via books, electric meters, detox programmes, all conveniently for sale on that site).

Cougar – when I was growing up it was standard practice for dentists to ‘drill and fill’, the more fillings they did meant more money for them. Every tooth in my mouth was filled from an early age, some of these fillings were literally huge blobs that had been plonked onto a tooth with no effort being made to make it look neat.

Before removing amalgams a test is carried out using an electrogalvanic meter which helps to give an idea of the electrical activity of fillings and potential mercury release.

My amalgams were removed by a specialist dentist using specialist equipment namely an air filtration system that removes impurities such as mercury vapour from the air. A rubber dam was also used.

To be fair it tends to be unhealthy people that have this procedure carried out. It’s not for the feint-hearted and is extremely costly. Interestingly though, my (functional medicine) Lyme doctor does not recommend this procedure.

Alison Adams removed her website, a shame as it was a good resource. Haven’t used a Naturopath so can’t comment but I would however say that those of us who’ve been failed at some point by conventional (pharma) medicine and its practitioners tend to start ploughing our own furrow.

If you have an autoimmune condition, and an increasing number of people do, then you can be affected by lots of different things. Electromagnetic sensitivity is one, multiple chemical sensitivity is another etc. I don’t use antibacterial products, fluoride toothpaste or mouthwash, parabens etc etc. Have a load of essential oils in the cupboard waiting to be turned into cleaning products.

Quite used to being laughed at, my kids certainly do. Haven’t yet told them about the Shamanic healing. 😉

Although there have always been cowboys in any profession, I think you would find that most dentists working in the 70’s and 80’s were not motivated by greed and thought they were doing the right thing. Also as mentioned above, if the government creates a system where your livelihood depends on how much you drill and fill, is not surprising that’s what the profession was encouraged to do.

Knowledge, materials and the philosophy behind dental treatment have moved on a long way and to a much less invasive more preventive approach since then. The NHS remuneration system is still very much tied to a payment for intervention approach sadly and that is one of the faults with how things currently stand and another reason dentist are moving outside it.

those of us who’ve been failed at some point by conventional (pharma) medicine and its practitioners tend to start ploughing our own furrow.

Sure. And that’s exactly what they bank on. “Big pharma” is hopelessly corrupt (I recommend Ben Goldacre’s book on this) but that doesn’t automatically mean the alternatives have any merit. Of course, it doesn’t mean they don’t either, but you need to approach any alternative “medicine” with a critical eye as I guarantee that if any of it was provably efficacious beyond placebo the pharmaceutical industry would have found a way to monetise it. Because that’s the bottom line, whether it’s conventional medicine or alternative “medicine,” someone somewhere is making a lot of money.

the more fillings they did meant more money for them
…
It’s not for the feint-hearted and is extremely costly.

Not seeing any correlation here? (-:

If you have an autoimmune condition, and an increasing number of people do, then you can be affected by lots of different things. Electromagnetic sensitivity is one

Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity is not a recognised medical condition by any medical board I’m aware of. It’s a myth. There’s a lengthy article exploring research here but his closing paragraph is as good a summation as any:

The ability of a human brain to convince itself of just about anything is not to be underestimated. If you are experiencing stress (and just about everyone is experiencing some stress), whatever you attribute it to will inevitably create more stress whenever you encounter it. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe yourself to be electrosensitive, then you will be, quite literally, whenever you perceive the presence of electromagnetism. This doesn’t mean that you have a paranormal ability to detect electromagnetic fields. You don’t. But you might be able to hear the high-frequency ring of your neighbor’s television set, or see the 60-Hz flickering of a fluorescent light bulb, or you might see that your computer has found a WiFi network or that your cell phone has four bars of signal. There are many ways that a person can detect the probable presence of electromagnetic radiation without the ability to directly sense it. And, if you’ve fallen into the self-fulfilling syndrome of believing yourself to be electrosensitive, you will actually suffer measurable physical symptoms and can potentially become acutely ill. By the same token, if you believe strongly enough that acupuncture or vitamins will cure your electrosensitivity, they probably will.

It’s fallacious to say, for example, homeopathy “doesn’t work.” The fact is that it doesn’t work beyond placebo. And the placebo effect can be very powerful indeed. Which leads us to another thorny question; should doctors be allowed to prescribe placebo products? I’m not sure as I have the answer to that one.

Ceepers, what you said was:

… NHS dental practices are all privately or corporately owned businesses that contract with the NHS to provide the service which is not the way GPs or hospitals were originally funded.

Which is not true. Not the structure of that contract may be different, but GP’s are privately owned businesses that contract with the NHS to provide a service. Perhaps those who negotiate those contracts on their collective behalf have done a better job than Dentist’s representatives? or perhaps it is simply that the service is rather different: dentists encourage people to see them routinely with no health concerns, doctors don’t; dentists actually execute much of the treatment themselves, most GP’s make referrals; GP’s typically see patients for 5 minutes, dentists for 20+ minutes; GP’s usually work alone, dentists need nursing staff for every procedure etc.

GP practices have historically been paid a “capitation” payment based on the size of population they serve. They also receive central funding for things like the NHS computer system etc. Although they are incredibly busy, the hour to hour financial pressures are not the same.

I do think their contract has been well negotiated, although personally I’d rather my GP was focussed on my health than any financial questions.

They also don’t need the same amount of very costly equipment or materials to provide the service.

That may be true, but they do prescribe sometimes very expensive drugs and refer to expensive specialist services, so it doesn’t follow that dental costs cannot be covered if there was a desire to do so – indeed children, etc pay no dental fees on the NHS.

GPs themselves are paid a nationally agreed salary.

is that true? Obviously some GPs are salaried – but as I understand it the “traditional” model was they were partners – so carry shared financial risk (e.g. if they need to get a locum to cover for staff sickness etc).

Most dentists, even non-practice owning ones , are self employed subcontractors paid based on a percentage of the fees they collect and the associated costs.

Interesting I didn’t realise that about non-partners. I wonder how the gig economy and IR35 arguments might apply to them. If collectively Dentists wanted to disrupt that model they are in a position to do that – so presumably that works for most of them?

GPs themselves are paid a nationally agreed salary

Not true…
A partner (the traditional gp model) owns and runs the business.often, they own the premises..their ‘salary’ is practice income minus expenses… As expenses are climbing and practice income falls etc etc, partnership income declines.

GPs aren’t really responsible or ‘pay’ for the cost of drugs they prescribe (this comes from the ccg budget)..however, the budget is finite, and a GP (as should any doctor/prescriber) should practice cost effective prescribing.
Basically, if I offer everyone who wants brand name drugs, kids with cancer may not get treatment as the budget is blown..

dentists actually execute much of the treatment themselves, most GP’s make referrals;

GPs and their staff see 90% of the patient contact the NHS deals with. If you think I’m ‘making referrals for most treatments’ then you’re sorely misinformed on what a GP practice does!!

Don’t worry , most people WITHIN the NHS don’t fully understand how primary care works, why it’s so cost effective, and why a model staffed only by ‘individual system specialists’ would last about 8 minutes before it ran out of cash and ideas…!!

I know this isn’t the question the OP asked, but the concept of a service model spanning nhs/private could be applied to a GP practice..

DrP

Ok I stand corrected. GPs aren’t my specialist area. I still stand by the fact that historically GPs were funded based more on a population they administered to basis rather than an “item of treatment” they provided basis. I know that is changing but it changes the dynamic.

Dentists have generally suffered because they are a les powerful lobby than the gps. No government can stomach GP strikes – look at the mess over junior doctors.

Historically the governments have been happy to force dentists out of the NHS by refusing to negotiate and enforcing a contract that the profession knew would have a negative impact on patients and their access to the service (hmmm where have we heard about that recently? It has negatively impacted access and quality by the way, just like the profession said it would) then allow the public to think they’re just money grabbing cowboys who are being too greedy.