I would be greatly in favour of the right to opt out of the NHS. Mainly for ther Boardingbobs and enfht's of this world and with absolutely no right to opt back in, once they realise what a cock they have been.

Even the chinless wonder admits to that one, which he does a nice spin on where he wabbles on about how his now sadly dead son was a beneficiary of the NHS…. Glibly and dare I say somewhat disingeniously wafting past the fact that there is NO WAY in this world he could have got appropriate cover to care for his diasabled at birth child without having to pay pro-rate for the care he received. Whilst Daddy probably could have afforded to have paid for it he chose a combination of NHS for the big bills and private for the comfy bits just like most of the private health care **** do, whilst moaning about how they get sod all out of the NHS!!

Twunts frankly.

i totaly agree G, cameron has to be very very careful what he says about this
even if his natural political leaning would be toward some of the capitalist eugenics crap spouted here he knows he cant be too 'conservative'

What worries me is a move towards needing private health care over here, I could maybe afford it but wouldnt be able to get covered for my existing hip problems which would mean any reforms (which I would be against) would have to be handled very carefully.

I used to have medical cover as part of my job I got made redundant and my free private health insurance finished on the spot.

2 months later my partner who was also covered by the private health insurance started having agonising pains in her stomach the nasty commie NHS quickly diagnosed and treated a gall stone.

I wonder what would have happened to her if we had been in the USA with no private health insurance surviving on the minimum wage. I dont know how much it would have cost cash for 2 consultations an endoscopy key hole surgery and follow up care but I bet I couldnt have afforded it.

I'd be looking at the state of American education rather than healthcare; the stupids seem to be in the ascendant.

(That means there are more stupids than there were before, just in case there are any of them reading)

I have often commented on the NHS in recent months as the missus has been long term poorly.

There have been good times and bad, but in general the wife would probably not be around if we lived in the states.

she has an immune deficiency (amongst other things) and regularly spks to americans in a similar boat on various forums.

they get less tests and blood works because of the cost even tho they are fully insured, they just dont receive as good care when a bottle of keovig costs £2k a time…. the missus has £2K every fortnight on the nhs free.

Healthcare should be free for all and fairplay to obama, he has an uphill struggle me thinks

what comes through to me the most in this thread are the prices of treatment. I get the staff and hospital running expenses but it seems to be it's mostly the medicine. Why is it so much? That's probably another thread to be honest.

Healthcare should be free for all

You mean freely available to all, surely. It's not free.

1 – "Healthcare should not be for profit."

It isn't. Health insurers underwrite healthcare plans with tiny profit margins.

Brilliant
It's not about profit, it just actually is
Tesco have low profit margins per unit sale, so they're not there for the profit, they're actually Britain's biggest charity shop

I would have read the rest of your post, but there's just so much stupidity I can take in one go

flashheart, please explain the difference between

free for all, and freely available to all?

I appreciate it isnt free, ie a % of taxation pays for it….

Brilliant
It's not about profit, it just actually is
Tesco have low profit margins per unit sale, so they're not there for the profit, they're actually Britain's biggest charity shop

I would have read the rest of your post, but there's just so much stupidity I can take in one go

I f*cking love winding you strokers up.

A typical health insurance plan will be written with 5% profit

I'd be looking at the state of American education rather than healthcare; the stupids seem to be in the ascendant.

I think that is really rather unfair. Yes American society (specially it's media) leaves many of it's citizen ill-informed and ignorant, but the evidence suggests that the 'stupids are not in the ascendant'.

After 8 years of having a half-wit idiot of a president, the American people threw out the Republican Party and it's crazy right-wing Christian fundamentalist policies from the presidency, choosing instead to elect a mixed race president who is somewhere to the left of New Labour.

We on the other hand during the same period of time, have freely elected to power, a party whose sycophantic leader has freely and repeatedly acted like the half-wit idiot's lapdog. And we now poised in a few months time, to elect a government even more right-wing than the present one.

Furthermore, whilst the American people appear to be making impressive and historic inroads into overcoming prejudice and bigotry, we are witnessing the first ever significant electorate breakthrough for neo-nazi racists in Britain.

I don't reckon we've got anything to be smug about.

and if the people trying to promote a left wing alternative weren't such dull, tedious fekwits, maybe the BNP wouldn't be making inroads into mainstream politics

..and,as for America

tommorrow, I go for an interview with the US Embassy Consular section in belfast to explain some of my youthful indiscretions. The rules are no electronics in the building, no mp3 players, pdas, mobile phones, etc. Today, they sent me an email reminding me that anyone carrying an mp3 player, pda, laptop, mobile phone or other fancy electronica would not be allowed into the building and would be be denied their visa interview. AND, large baggege such as suitcases, rucksacks, or backpacks would also be denied access. Helpfully, they suggest that any such large items of baggage can be left at a "local transport depot", which I assume means bus or railway station. Which makes sense because there's a plethora of places in BELFAST where you can leave luggage. I mean, it's not like there's any recent history of fekkin terrorism there is there?

Still, going here for tea tomorrow night

Finbar, sorry to hear about your story- for what it's worth my grandma received similiarly terrible care from a BUPA hospital. It's not simply an NHS problem.

As for the NHS- I owe them my leg, I owe them the fact that I can run for a bus or ride a bike. And my diabetes care has been beyond reproach. It's not perfect but it does some pretty amazing things, as well as occasionally some very bad things. There's not a lot of things I'd genuinely fight for, this is one.

from the bbc

an editorial at the Investors Business Daily (IBD) launched an attack on the British National Health Service (NHS), as a warning against what could happen if the US adopted such a model.

The article's author went on to assert that "people such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."

Prof Hawking was born in the UK, and has lived and worked there for his entire life.

And UK newspapers the Guardian and Daily Telegraph reported Prof Hawking as saying that he "wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS".

absolutely **** brilliant

> elect a government even more right-wing than the present one.

Really, is that possible 😉 ?

people such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK

Presumably kimbers, it didn't even occur to the Investors Business Daily that the world's most famous theoretical physicist might not be American.

Despite my comment a few posts up there ^^^ that "American society (specially it's media) leaves many of it's citizen ill-informed and ignorant" I am quite frankly shocked that a publication who's readers presumably rely on for reliable and factual information, should be so ill-informed and clueless.

I wouldn't be best pleased if I was an American investor who had just taken out an annual subscription with the Investors Business Daily.

.

allthepies – it is …….. but only just 😐

apparently the editorial has been doing the right wing blog rounds

to be fair his computerized voice has an american accent
and an iq below 50 and right wing american goes together like peanut butter and jelly

to be fair his computerized voice has an american accent

What, don't they realise that it's not his real voice then ? 😕

Anyways……I don't reckon his accent sounds american – listen to the answer phone message he left me here.

I saw a response on one site "The NHS only made an exception in Hawking's case because he's famous. They wouldn't do it for anyone else". Complete cobblers but people are actually buying it. I may never tell the truth again, lying just works better 🙁

I'll refer you back to my earlier post: it would be hard to recieve worse healthcare than that

You could receive equally bad healthcare and have to remortgage your house to pay for it… Would that be better?

How can you have a right to something when you contribute absolutely nothing?

Those who disagree – are you saying that if 25,000 people from sub saharan Africa turned up next month and then again for the following 6 months just to be treated at our (uk taxpayers) expense you would not feel a just a little bit uneasy about it?

Human rights is very much 'from the eye of the beholder type argument' I guarentee that most of you on this forum would choose for people to die in Africa rather than people in this country if you were forced out of your comfortable safe lives and it was a you or them scenario. I know I would – it's simple human instinct you look after your own first the rest is a luxury. In fact we all probably do – how many times do the chuggers in the streets tell you that £10 a month would feed a family in Africa? You wouldn't donate that if it meant taking food out of your families mouths and most of you probably don't regularly donate to any charities that work out side of the UK anyway – I don't. My money goes to UK charities first. Admit you are all as selfish as me despite all the supiority attitudes on here mocking the Americans.

Anyway;

I'm surprised no one on the STW massive has commented on one obvious point behind all this. In the UK the NHS is the single biggest expense to the government. In the US the military is. This profits mostly US companies twice over – those that supply the military and then the medical/insurance companies. If the US government put in an extact replica of the NHS both military and medical insurance companies profits would fall and both are massive in the states. Another point that won't be lost on many a US citizen is that the inception of the NHS occured just as Britain stopped being the worlds dominant power…

A typical health insurance plan will be written with 5% profit

And in the USA, typically significantly more of it is taken by the massive legal / administrative burden if you break it down (something like 25-40% or something ridiculous).

Joe

Another point that won't be lost on many a US citizen is that the inception of the NHS occured just as Britain stopped being the worlds dominant power…

OK, thats an interesting point of view. I think that the UK was not the worlds dominant power in 1946, and had not been for some decades. I also think that the financial state of the UK in 1946 might have had more to do with 6 years of world war 2 than the inception of the NHS. Am I wrong?

are you saying that if 25,000 people from sub saharan Africa turned up next month and then again for the following 6 months just to be treated at our (uk taxpayers) expense

What an utterly ridiculous, absurd, and completely preposterous comment…….. well done ! Surely worthy of some sort of award ?

The issue being discussed here, is whether the United States should provide universal healthcare for all it's citizens.

The right to medical care is an internationally recognised human right. Indeed the United States is a signatory the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948 which in Article 25, as I have already mentioned, clearly states that each country has an obligation to provide medical aid to all it's citizens.

The United States has an obligation to comply to international treaties to which they have freely signed. The obligation to provide medical care to all it's citizens is now over 60 years overdue.

Having now actually watched what Hannan said, rather than read the Pravda style reports on the BBC, Whilst the bloke interviewing him was clearly the TV equivalent of a right wing shock jock, I personally couldn't disagree with any of the points that Hannan himself made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wcWlHTRcTE

Basically, that the waiting lists and survival rates of the NHS show that its far from the perfect model of a social healthcare system!

Having also read "the plan" its clear that he does not think that the american model is one to emulate either, and that he thinks that universal provision free at the point of delivery is vital – however the current NHS model is failing for many, and could be improved – I think Cameron would have been better saying "we'd like to improve on what we've already got"

BigEaredBiker wrote, "Another point that won't be lost on many a US citizen is that the inception of the NHS occured just as Britain stopped being the worlds dominant power… "

This really is complete toss.

BigEaredBiker wrote, "Another point that won't be lost on many a US citizen is that the inception of the NHS occured just as Britain stopped being the worlds dominant power… "

This really is complete toss.

Is it really? All Americans know their country is the worlds current superpower and many believe that GB fullfilled that role before them. India became independent shortly after the NHS was established and within 10 years Britain could no longer act unilaterally on the world stage. Mark my words the same sort of nutters that said Stephen Hawking would be dead if treated by the NHS would say that a country that provides free universal healthcare can no longer afford to also be a 1st rate military power.

If they wish to use this warped logic the stats are there to help them this year the government will spend approx £110 billion on healthcare and £42 billion on defence. Add the other £50 odd billion spent on welfare and this country spends almost 4 times on 'socialist' areas than things that can be put to good use invading other countries and scaring ascending powers.

The argument raging in America isn't really about what may or may not be true but about what people percieve it to be.

Mark my words the same sort of nutters that said Stephen Hawking would be dead if treated by the NHS would say that a country that provides free universal healthcare can no longer afford to also be a 1st rate military power.

If they wish to use this warped logic the stats are there to help them

Ah right ………. you were only playing the Devil's advocate then.

Because of course you on the other hand, realise the suggestion that the creation of the National Health Service brought about the collapse of the British Empire, is complete toss.

😉

I have never had anyone agree with me so forcefully before

When I've worked in the states and have got to know guys over there, this conversation always pops up at some point. The general American has a stereotype that Brits recieve very poor healthcare and will often use our teeth as a good example (my teeth are less than excellent so it gives them a good starting point). What the vast majority appear to be unaware of is that I can have a medical problem and effectively recieve free treatment for that problem for the rest of my life, that bit is a real eye opener for them.

Once the NHS system is described to them, they almost always nod and accept that it's a great idea.

I for one having being treated many times by the NHS, and having watched my father be treated for a long time for terminal cancer have absolutely nothing but praise for the system as a whole. Yep, there's a few crap areas in there, but the people on the front line are as a rule, freaking excellent.

government will spend approx £110 billion on healthcare

As is necessary, obviously.

£42 billion on defence

Mostly wasted, better spent on the NHS.

this country spends almost 4 times on 'socialist' areas than things that can be put to good use invading other countries and scaring ascending powers.

You are a very good troll, I'll give you that.

Once the NHS system is described to them, they almost always nod and accept that it's a great idea.

Well it's a shame in that case that what Barack Obama is offering the American people, isn't a National Health Service.

As I understand, the medical provisions which Barack Obama would like to see implemented, are much more similar to the Canadian example. Which I believe is (70%) publicly funded, and privately provided.

BTW Canada, like the US, spends a higher percentage of it's GDP on healthcare than Britain.

Basically, that the waiting lists and survival rates of the NHS show that its far from the perfect model of a social healthcare system!

No – they show it's far from the perfect execution of a healthcare system.

As for the defence arguments – it seems to me that a scarily large number of American men think that intimidation the proper, moral, normal and decent way to conduct negotiations. Most of the arguments against Obama during the election were saying that he wouldn't be strong enough militarily. That view seems to be carried through to day to day life for a lot of people. So that could explain why bossing people around gets so much money allocated to it and helping ill people gets less, maybe?

"The main issues with the NHS IMO ? IME are:
Demoralised overworked shop floor workforce.
Inadequate and poor quality management ( we need more and better skilled and trained managers)
Political interference"

I couldn't agree more. I moved from private sector to NHS just over 1 year ago to a management position (non clinical). The things that have surprised me the sheer number of middle managers which leaves an upside down type organisational structure, and all these managers do not appear to know what they are supposed to achieve as the government has so many targets and goals, instead of one or two clear goals for the whole organisation to achieve. Added to this people just appear to work in isolation, championing their own area, I find it unbeleivable how little teams communicate with each other. However having said that there are some very good managers, but they continually prop up the bad ones, work very long hours and get very little thanks o reward for it.

As to the shop floor, all I can say is that Doctors are getting more and more shafted, expected to do more in less time, and without adequate training.

finbar – I'm sorry to hear about your experience of the NHS. You should seriously consider making a formal complaint. Trust and government need to realise that they can not keep pushing front line staff so hard as it does affect patient care.

As to those who say why should I pay for healthcare twice ie NI and BUPA. Fine, just try using BUPA and not NHS Healthcare. BUPA is great for getting you quick access to fairly minor treatments, but if you become seriously ill BUPA will just pass you back to the NHS, or if during an op at a private hospital some thing goes wrong they will just dial 999 and get an ambulance to take you to an NHS hospital.

Is the NHS the best system? No probably not, its such a large organisation and has grown over so many years that some elements of it are not as good as they could be, but is it below standard? Certainly not, IMO it is one of the best 'free' healthcare systems in the world.

I started Dialysis in May this year. It costs at least £20 a day every day. My equipment gets delivered by the most efficient delivery service I have come across, they will put it wherever I want in my house (roughly 1 tonne of kit) every month. I have 24 hour support from my Dialysis unit should anything go wrong and I have has hundreds of hospital appointment and blood tests over the years. Even holiday insurance for 2 weeks costs nearly £300 so the thought of Private Health insurance should I get accepted doesn't bear thinking about.

I have also had private treatment (through work) for a prolapsed disc in my spine which was excellent and speedy.

Sure, the NHS is not perfect but the alternative does not bear thinking about for me.

BigEaredBiker wrote, India became independent shortly after the NHS was established

I think you'll find Indian independence pre dated the NHS by about a year