Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 127 total)
  • NHS and America
  • anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I cannot get my head round why a rich country could be so against social health care for all. Can anyone enlighten me?

    wors
    Full Member

    Beyong me, just googled which countries have a nhs, of al industrialised nations just US doesn't!

    uplink
    Free Member

    I cannot get my head round why a rich country could be so against social health care for all. Can anyone enlighten me?

    You see that word 'social'? – well that scares the bejeesus out of a lot of them + they have a lot of money thrown at enforcing & building on those fears

    grumm
    Free Member

    I do find it fairly sickening the way they are suggesting an nhs-style system (which is not what they are proposing anyway) is somehow evil and will harm people. It's not going to harm the 46 million people who have no health insurance at all is it, and it won't make any difference for those who already have insurance.

    What they really mean is, we don't want any of our taxes to go to scummy people who can't afford health insurance.

    How they can feel comfortable with living in a 'civilised' country where 46 million people have no or very little access to healthcare is beyond me.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    An American once came to work at the Uni I worked at and asked me about our Socialist health care system!

    Two truths about the
    1. NHS everyone moans about it
    2.Everyone loves it ,tresures it and deems it essential

    What is there to dislike about free at source health care for all your citizens?
    Surely a human right?

    thomthumb
    Free Member

    they keep touting we dont want to be a socialist (or socialised SIC) country. don't want to be communist. but then tout out the UK. they really have no idea.

    They also don't seem to grasp that we do actually have private health care here too.

    I don't understand how a nation cannot want to have no basic minimum helath care – yes the NHS isn't ideal – it's probably too wide ran ging definatley over stretched, definately too many middle managers and 'directors of patient experience' wtf? not enough nurses and doctors. but everyone gets free at the point of access minimum basic health care.

    we all know that the us is a backward country, anyway. 🙂

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Its bizare, I mean how many people in the UK would want to scrap the NHS? Very, very few I would imagine (anyone on here?) and despite what we think we are not that different from the US

    molgrips
    Free Member

    They think that the NHS offers terrible care. There are people running adverts on telly and selectively interviewing biased people telling them how terrible things are. Everyone who's actually been here and used the services though say they're great.

    It's lies and misinformation put out by the health insurance lobby. Another great advert for the US political system I don't think.

    More info for the Brits: There are whatever, 46 million people without insurance for sure, but what's just as bad is that when you DO have insurance it usually only covers so much cost. So if your treatment goes above that figure you still get left with a massive bill. What is covered on your insurance depends on how good the policy is which in turn depends on your job or how rich you are. Then policies often don't cover stuff like GP visits which means that people don't go in for that little cough or little pain somewhere.. people must surely be dying because of conditions not caught early enough.

    The system is sickening. Healthcare should not be for profit. But half the people think it's the best thing ever.. which is frankly frightening (but not because Americans are stupid, more that people everywhere can be very easily influenced by poisonous propaganda).

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member
    grumm
    Free Member

    David Cameron has come out in support of the NHS – http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/aug/14/health-nhs

    But probably only after he saw the groundswell of public opinion.

    clubber
    Free Member

    They're scared of change.

    They're scared that it won't be implemented well and even if their own present insurance isn't perfect, many are happy enough with it.

    Put it another way, if we didn't currently have the NHS and it was proposed, would you trust our government to do it properly regardless of how good a bad idea you thought it inherently was?

    nickc
    Full Member

    White Middle Class Americans* believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have the best health-care in the world, OK, you have to pay for it (about $12,000/annum for a family of 4 with no history). BUT once you've paid that YOU WILL get the very best treatment, drugs, doctors and so on. They fear that "socialized" medicine will mean that although they won't have to pay as much (although, obviously they'll have to pay some through taxation) the level of care they receive for their money will be less than spectacular.

    *These are the only people in the US that "count", the fact that 47 million other Americans don't have access is almost irrelevant. Commentators will pay lip service to it, but it really doesn't matter.

    America is great, just don't get old, don't get sick, and don't get unemployed.

    vinnyeh
    Full Member

    clubber, the most sensible comment yet.

    grumm
    Free Member

    But is there anything stopping them from just paying for a better standard of healthcare if they deem it necessary/can afford it – like in this country? Although I have heard some horror stories about BUPA care anyway.

    CaptJon
    Free Member

    White Middle Class Americans* believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have the best health-care in the world,

    Wrongly if the OECD is to be believed – UK = 12th, US = 37th IIRC in the healthcare league table.

    grumm
    Free Member

    But the average is probably dragged down by all the people who don't have any healthcare – it's probably great if you can afford it.

    nickc
    Full Member

    captJon, doesn't matter, that figure isn't what WMCA have, it's what the whole of the USA have, and the whole of the USA for the purpose of this discussion is irrelevant. The people that can afford to pay for health-care want that to continue, and largely, TBH the folk that can't pay for it now, want more money so that can pay for it, not a cheaper system that "won't" be as good (as they believe).

    This is at the heart of the American system : If you can afford it, you get the best, otherwise you work harder to be able to afford it. Perversely the people that are campaigning the hardest are the people who are just beyond it's reach, they want it still to be there when they CAN afford it, as the believe is their right.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    BUT once you've paid that [insurance] YOU WILL get the very best treatment, drugs, doctors and so on

    Not true. As I said, most people's insurance only goes so far. So you get the best cover etc (suposedly) only up to a certian point then you either shell out, go without or try and cut your own costs.

    Also, the hospitals etc make money for the treatment they do so you get tons of unnecessary treatments and tests thrown at you.

    Perversely the people that are campaigning the hardest are the people who are just beyond it's reach, they want it still to be there when they CAN afford it, as the believe is their right.

    It still would be. You can still have private care here and you coudl still in the US too.

    Nobby
    Full Member

    According to a mate of mine over there this has been a time bomb waiting to go off for years. Healthcare provision in the U.S. has always been put to one side by politicians yet it has been a factor in a few of their economic problems. GM, as an example, had been held to ransom by the union in the 80's & part of the settlement was the provision of health insurance. 20 odd years later, the costs hadve spiralled so far out of control it was a major component in the company filing for bankruptcy protection.

    As an aside, he told me that Sarah Palin and a load of her cronies were throwing NHS scare stories into the media, one of which was that Stephen Hawkings would be dead if he were British and had to rely on thye NHS. Apparently he released a statement along the lines of "I am British and if it wasn't for the NHS I would not have survived. This is not my real voice you can hear, but that of a computer." Made me chuckle.

    marsdenman
    Free Member

    Heard a lot about this on the Radio yesterday, made my blood boil… whilst the NHS may not be perfect, the rubbish they were spouting on TV ads and stuff was outrageous….

    3 things

    1. the much money made on private health care insurance = a powerful (cash) lobby against change
    2. As above – their acute aversion to anything with the word 'social' in it
    3. Scared of change
    3a. See #1

    Scared of change – what was the position of the UK populace when the NHS was first floated here I wonder….

    marsdenman
    Free Member

    most people's insurance only goes so far

    In the USA, if your insurance does not cover you for the full extent of the required treatment you had best raise the funds PDQ or you'll be sent home.

    The lady supporting the UK side of things on R2 yesterday gave a figure, a high percentage, that the largest contributor to personal bankruptcy in the US of A is due to people having to get into serious debt to pay for treatment….

    Aristotle
    Free Member

    – what was the position of the UK populace when the NHS was first floated here I wonder….

    …Post-war national chaos. The NHS was an amazingly successful venture made possible by the infrastructures created during WW2.

    The range of services and expectations were much different then though.

    Harry_the_Spider
    Full Member

    The Daily Mash have it right

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/americans-without-health-insurance-attack-plan-to-give-them-health-insurance-200908141981/

    The interview on 5LIVE last night where the American didn't know the difference between NHS and NICE, but either way our system is wrong apparently, had me shouting at the radio.

    I had a big shunt on the bike 10 years back and the NHS put me back together, an American colleague did something similar on his snowboard and will now walk with a limp until he can afford to get it fixed.

    Del
    Full Member

    not renowned for his unbiased film making, but Michael Moore's 'Sicko' does a pretty good job of highlighting how 5hite their system is and contrasting it with other country's.

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    If the Americans-at-large (no pun intended) believe this anti-NHS guff they are idiots. Good one Obama, and long live the NHS. As the parent of a child who was hospitalised for 7 weeks last summer and is in and out every few weeks even now I am delighted to live in the UK and have the NHS.

    WhatWouldJesusRide
    Free Member

    Christ!

    The system in the states seems to be based on the concept of commodifying everything. The healthcare sector is a case in point.

    The best medical care in the world is there, subject to the ability to pay for it.

    On seeing interviews with the public at large, it seems that they can be easily quite swayed and tend to take everything at face value. The attacks on the NHS & dentistry in this country were vitriolic. What appeals to a lot of people in the states is simplistic sloganeering that can be easily repeated, memorised and reproduced on banners.

    I've seen these gabbling mouth breathers of all hues interviewed. The ability to present a coherent argument is not there. They get agitated when the opinions given to them are picked apart and they become shrill and ever more irrational in trying to save face.

    It's a plague of **** wittery. Top to bottom.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Nice selective quotes there Molgrips.

    As I said, they believe they get the best, whether they do or not in reality is largely not the point.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Having spent a summer working with kids from inner city boston (which is in one of the richest states)
    I was absolutely horrified by the medical treatment the kids got
    It is how I imagined a 3rd world country to be, HIV and hepatitis in some of the really bad cases but generally ringwom, lice and ear infections that smell like rotten meat every time a kid turned his head side on

    Stuff that your GP would whack you with some antibiotics for in a second

    Ive also worked with kids in haringey and seen that things can be pretty rough here too but nothing compared to what i saw in the states

    every american should be ashamed of their health 'system' it really doesnt belong in the developed world

    that rupert murdoch, palin and their right wing buddies over there are using the NHS in fabricated scaremongering tactics is disgusting

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    I have heard right-wing American Christians argue that 'state charity' as they call it, is satanic (I kid you not) because it leaves the individual indebted to the state, when in fact everything comes from God. It is the work of the devil they believe, so don't be surprised if they are particularly aggressive in their opposition towards it.

    As for the claim that we have a 'socialist' health care system, that comment is not too far from the truth. The guiding principle behind the NHS is "From each according to the ability, to each according to their need". This fundamental Marxist principle is somewhat to the left of socialism. It is in fact, the basic guiding principle of an advanced communist-utopian-anarchistic society.

    It needs to be remembered that the Soviet Union was the first country in the world to create a universal health care system. And indeed it was this example provided by the Soviet Union which encouraged the immensely powerful and Marxist influenced British trade unions, to demand and pressurised their sponsored parliamentary representatives to create the first NHS in the western world.

    It also needs to be remembered that the British Medical Association was wholly opposed to the creation of the NHS although ironically, it is now one of it's strongest defenders. It was the huge support that the idea of universal healthcare enjoyed amongst the British public, which guaranteed it's success. A British public incidental, which after years of experiencing conditions of total war, had seen the huge benefits of having a sense of community where individuals pulled together for the common good.

    Although as a result the ascendancy of the selfish neo-liberal argument amongst the tabloid reading British public, and their buying of the economic gobbledygook concerning 'free' market, taxation, etc, I agree with the comment that today, there would be no stomach for creating an NHS if one did not already exist.

    It also maybe pertinent to remember, that the NHS was created despite it's huge costs, at a time when Britain was in an extremely deep recession.

    .

    Furthermore, it is also worth remembering that Article 25 of the 1948 UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights states :

    Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

    It is clear that the United States a country which is not only quick to preach to others, but is also keen to attack and invade them on the pretext of 'concern for human rights', denies it's own people the fundamentals basic human rights and freedoms which is universally expected from a civilised society.

    noteeth
    Free Member

    Dan Hannan is a self-aggrandising ****.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    So whilst we dont agree on how best to run it, how much it should cover or weather it would be introduced now if we didnt already have it, do we all agree that we want it?

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Dan Hannan is a self-aggrandising ****

    Agreed. I didn't bother watching much of the interview but I saw enough to see how despite clearly being a huge fan of the United States, he has a very low opinion of Britain and the British people. I found his ridicule of the 'friday night tradition' as he called it, particularly nauseating. Still, it got him a cheap laugh from his American audience at the expense of the British people.

    And this is the guy who the Maggie Thatcher loving punters on here were getting all excited about and wetting their pants over – because of his recent speech in the European Parliament.

    😕

    noteeth
    Free Member

    "A Conservative spokesman said: "We're not really sure what Daniel Hannan's problem is with the NHS. Perhaps they were unable to save his hair."

    Props once again to The Daily Mash.

    enfht
    Free Member

    Remind me again why I pay twice for my health care?

    1.Tax/NI
    2.Private Health Insurance

    And I'm fed up paying for the World's health tourists

    Would the NHS waste lass cash if they were private?

    uplink
    Free Member

    Remind me again why I pay twice for my health care?

    Because you can & want to?

    I do the same

    enfht
    Free Member

    No I don't want to, I am forced to in order to get the standard of health care any G8 citizen should receive

    uplink
    Free Member

    OK stop paying for the BUPA [or whatever]

    uplink
    Free Member

    I see you edited a bit after I posted 🙂

    Anyway – if you could opt out of your tax/NI obligations which BUPA A&E dep't would you use should you fall off you bicycle & injure yourself?

    If the US system is so good why don't they have a higher life expectancy than us – you'd think that'd follow wouldn't you?

    muddydwarf
    Free Member

    Private Healthcare is a 'choice' – you don't have to pay into it if you don't want to. You made the choice, either stop paying or stop whining.

    greyman
    Free Member

    couple of points, no particular order …

    NHS does a remarkable job, I think 99% of us brits like to moan about it, but wouldn't like to be without it.

    It certainly ain't free.
    (I think you should get some sort of tax break if you choose to pay for private insurance – need to dwell a bit on that one)

    Needed A&E treatment in California once, service was outstandingly good. Naively offered to pay on the way out !
    They said "no one ever pays sir – you do have insurance don't you ?" 🙂

    My wife is American (dons flameproof suit)and she thinks the NHS gets the job done well, albeit a bit slower. She accepts however that back home she was never one of the 46m without cover. She also agrees that millions of Americans live in "fear" of needing lots of medical treatment as they age and retire etc – as above, financial ruin if you ain't prepared.

    Mind you, that's probably what keeps their "waiting lists" shorter ! 😉

    They do have social medicine though, certainly in Cali, paid by a lot of donations, charity work etc methinks

    I'm sure I prefer our system on balance, we certainly have enough, er, social scroungers in this country anyway, we could save £££'s of public money wasted in many other areas – I ain't gonna deny anybody healthcare, even if I disagree with their politics/lifestyle/morals

    G.

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