New job; when does Holiday start accruing? Calling employment experts.

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New job; when does Holiday start accruing? Calling employment experts.

19 posts & 9 voices | Started 2 years ago by feenster | Latest reply from stealthcat

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feenster - Member

So I started a new job on 7th Dec. Leave entitlement is 28 days plus 6 public holidays. Leave year Jan - Dec. Expected that I would have accrued a couple of days leave to use over crimbo period. Told today that I can't take any holiday in December, because their policy is that leave only accrues from the first of each month, so accrual will not start until 1st Jan. Same when I resign, leave only accrues up to the end of the last complete month of employment.

No mention of this policy in particulars of employment, or staff handbook.

Doesn't seem right to me, I would have thought leave accrual should start/stop from the date employment started/ended, regardless of when in month.

Did a bit of online searching, and it does seem to be a bit of a grey area. Found some quotes on ACAS, and Direct.gov.uk that seem to support my view, and that as a statutory right, holiday accrues from first day of employment, but my scenario is only indirectly addressed.

Plus this from The Working Time (Amendment) Regulations 2001, which confuses me.

" Leave during the first year of employment
15A. - (1) During the first year of his employment, the amount of leave a worker may take at any time in exercise of his entitlement under regulation 13 is limited to the amount which is deemed to have accrued in his case at that time under paragraph (2), as modified under paragraph (3) in a case where that paragraph applies, less the amount of leave (if any) that he has already taken during that year. (2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), leave is deemed to accrue over the course of the worker's first year of employment, at the rate of one-twelfth of the amount specified in regulation 13(1) on the first day of each month of that year.

(3) Where the amount of leave that has accrued in a particular case includes a fraction of a day other than a half-day, the fraction shall be treated as a half-day if it is less than a half-day and as a whole day if it is more than a half-day.

(4) This regulation does not apply to a worker whose employment began on or before 25th October 2001."

Can anyone help me understand this? What is my statutory position? Do I have a case?

Also need to be careful, as a new employer and don't want to rock boats, so advice on how to handle it appreciated also.

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

I know it's boring and serious, and it's Christmas, but c'mon STW, don't fail me now.

Posted 2 years ago #
jj55 - Member

Have you tried ACAS?

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

Yes, but as I say, it sorts of backs me up, but doesn't quite hit my particular nail on it's head.

Posted 2 years ago #
jj55 - Member

Give them a ring tomorrow their advice is free and usually very good

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

Will do, cheers.

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

So, today I called ACAS. They told me that the company is wrong, statutory holiday accrues from day one, and I should have 2 days to use by the end of December, which is also end of their leave year.

Pulled together a few quotes from ACAS, direct.gov.uk, and businesslink.gov.uk, and spoke to management asking for clarification.

Management checked with their HR services company who stated that their Policy is correct, and not breaching any statutory entitlements, but didn't offer anything further than that.

Hmmm. What now, still not satisfied. Don't understand how the policy can be correct when it seems, according to my understanding and interpretation, to go against statute, and also advice from ACAS.

Once again, can any employemnt experts offer any help on this? Probably nothing beyond what ACAS have said I expect. What should I do next?

Posted 2 years ago #
uplink - Member

It's been a while since I was involved in these things but I do recall that only complete months count

Posted 2 years ago #
haakon_haakonsson - Member

I do think that it's a bit harsh of your new employer. Whatever the letter of the employment contract, it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow you to take some of your (future) leave over Christmas in your first month working there - sounds like your manager & HR don't want to make a decision on this, so I guess that you're having to take unpaid leave?

On a more practical note, you may just have to chalk it up to experience, and make sure that you ask this question specifically if and when you change jobs in the future. You'll probably be on a hiding to nothing trying to argue the toss with your current employer on this issue.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not hold any qualification in Human Resources or employment law!

Posted 2 years ago #
slacker - Member

You've probably already seen this but there's a calculator on the businesslink website
That says you're entitled to 2 days holiday, but it also says that the statutory minimum can include bank holidays, so presumably if you're getting Christmas day and Boxing day off your company could say they've given you what you're owed. Or are you getting no holiday at all?

Posted 2 years ago #
mikewsmith - Member

happened to me when I last started. 1st day was Nov 4th(Monday) so I missed Friday 1st, no leave accrued for November, was one of only 3 people in by lunchtime christmas eve so we all agreed it was 4pm and p!ssed off

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

@haakon_haakonsson

In fairness to the employer, they are being very reasonable, and are allowing me to take a day or two of paid leave from next year, unpaid leave, or flexi.

Issue for me is that I feel like I'm losing 2 days holiday I'm entitled to,and eating into next year's entitlement.

Agree I need to be careful arguing about it, as I'm new and don't want to be branded a militant by the end of my first month.

However, if it is wrong, it needs fixed.

If they can explain to me why my understanding of the statutory entitlement, and ACAS's advice is wrong, I'd be happy with that.

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

@slacker - yeah, I saw that calculator. One of the reasons I'm so confused. I'm getting the public holidays over the christmas period, so yes, they could say they are giving me the statutory. However, that's a moot point, as if I had started on a month with no public hols, I would not get any days off at all for that month.

Also, they did say that strictly speaking I am not even entitled to the public holidays over christmas, but that that of course they would never do that.

How do I figure out what the Law is on this?

Posted 2 years ago #
feenster - Member

1st day was Nov 4th(Monday) so I missed Friday 1st, no leave accrued for November

That just seems wrong to me. These things shouldn't be down to coicidences of the calander. We get paid pro-rata from day one of employment, so why not holiday as well?

Posted 2 years ago #
haakon_haakonsson - Member

Right, have just re-read the section of the WTA that you quoted in your original post.

My interpretation, and I again stress that I'm not professionally or legally qualified, is that annual leave accrues (ie becomes available to you to use) on the 1st day of each month of employment. This means that you don't "have" any leave available to you until 1st January, ie in January you can take the 2 days leave that you've accrued by being on the payroll on 1st January.

If you'd started work on 1st December, then I think that you should have been entitled to the accrued leave during that month.

It's a bummer, but remember that you're only in your first month of employment once, after that it kind of evens out. If your employer is being reasonable and letting you either take unpaid leave (ie not expecting you to come in to work while everyone else is eating leftover turkey and watching the Bond film), or letting you "bring forward" leave into 2009 that you otherwise wouldn't be taking until 2010, then you probably won't get a better deal.

Posted 2 years ago #
slacker - Member

Everything I can find seems to say you're entitled to 1/12 of your annual entitlement so you're allowed 2, or possibly 3 days depending on how you interpret things. They've given you 2 days off so they've probably given you what they technically owe you.
It does sound like they are wrong in what they are saying though, and if you'd joined in a month without any bank holidays in it you'd still have accrued 2 days.

Might be worth asking HR to explain their interpretation of the rules because the ACAS stuff seems pretty clear, but like haakon_haakonsson said, seen as how you've only just started I'd probably just suck it up and enjoy the time off you have got

Posted 2 years ago #
whatTree - Member

their policy is that leave only accrues from the first of each month, so accrual will not start until 1st Jan. Same when I resign, leave only accrues up to the end of the last complete month of employment.

According to Mrs WT (ex-HR bod) that bit's wrong and leave would accrue from day 1 of employment on a pro rata basis. She did say that it may be that they choose to add these up at the end of each month but that would be more for their ease than anything else. She feels that you should be legally entitled but as with a lot of things it's probably not something you want to get legal about within the first month of a new job.

Posted 2 years ago #
grantway - Member

For what I remember you build them up over
your fist year But may only qualify for around
2 to 3 days within your first year of employment.

Posted 2 years ago #
stealthcat - Member

It's not that uncommon a policy, but I'm surprised it's not stated in your contract. I don't officially work in HR, but have been seconded to the HR department of a big company (10K+ staff) and it's in all the contracts I've seen here.
Triple-check anything you've signed, and if it's really not in the small print, suggest that they add it for future employees? It doesn't help you much, but someone might be grateful for it later...

Posted 2 years ago #

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