Bob Peasant can happily save that £50 and buy all the twizzlers he wants with it by simply not breaking the law in the first place

I don’t like speaking on behalf of others but I think this misses the point. The issue is that an on-the-spot fine will not discourage the rich from breaking the law.

However, I’d be interested to hear how you think this will be resourced?

Well it won’t be. Obviously. It is mainly just pandering for votes and nothing measurable will come of it.

Fining people based on their income is nonsense and impossible to be consistent, anything that means treating people differently for the same offence is manifestly unfair.

But fixed fines means that you ARE treating people differently – taking 50% of one offender’s weekly income and 0.0001% of anothers. That seems more unfair to me.

Coffeeking – are you serious? In that when driving quickly you dont know the colour or type of vehicles that are around you? If you are indeed serious then it suggests that you are driving way way beyond your ability levels. Golden rule is that if it feels fast then it is bad driving. I know that when I drive fast I know exactly where everything is, its speed, whether it is accelerating or slowing down and more often than not where the driver is looking and how they’ve been driving.

But fixed fines means that you ARE treating people differently – taking 50% of one offender’s weekly income and 0.0001% of anothers. That seems more unfair to me

Agreed.

SBZ presumably your driving is a bit like TJ and his virtual bike… 🙂

more often than not where the driver is looking and how they’ve been driving

Agreed – it is often very easy to see when someone isn’t concentrating just because of their road position, something seemingly very minor like the angle of their head, their speed etc.

Boblo – no, my driving is just at the level it should be.

Boblo – no, my driving is just at the level it should be.

Best in the world.

Difficult leaving people in your dust without a car to demonstrate your state of the art driving skills in ne pas? 😆

Coffeeking – are you serious? In that when driving quickly you dont know the colour or type of vehicles that are around you? If you are indeed serious then it suggests that you are driving way way beyond your ability levels. Golden rule is that if it feels fast then it is bad driving. I know that when I drive fast I know exactly where everything is, its speed, whether it is accelerating or slowing down and more often than not where the driver is looking and how they’ve been driving.

re-read my post, I was talking about on track, and assuming anyone driving like a nut on public roads is going to be in a similar frame of mind.

I know that when I drive fast I know exactly where everything is, its speed, whether it is accelerating or slowing down and more often than not where the driver is looking and how they’ve been driving.

Regardless of how fast I’m driving I see all of those things (except where the person is looking as generally I’ve found it to provide no useful info at all unless they’re looking away from me), I just don’t care what vehicle colour and type it is when going faster. If I’m cruising around slowly and enjoying the day I’ll notice the car with stripes for sure, but I’m not sure I would if I was hoofing it.

Much the same as speed cameras – if you’re concentrating on the surface/traffic conditions as much as you should be when driving at speed, keeping an eye out for cameras is distracting.

You are clearly not concentrating properly if you don’t know what is around you.

No, the point being colour is not important when driving fast (assuming you were going to on the roads), nor is the detail of whether a car has a roofrack or a set of lights. What’s important is where they all are, how fast theyre moving, their recent history and likely future positions and to some extent their size (truck/van/car/bike etc). When motorway driving I could tell you where about 3 cars back and forward in each lane is, where it seems to be headed and which will pass next and usually the colour too. When driving faster the colour becomes less important, it seems to automatically get dropped from my senses. Much the same as when karting – I often race with 6 or 7 other people, of course I could recognise the colour of their helmet when tootling round but when going for it that goes out of the window, they’re an object to be avoided and passed, only later do I identify who they were.

Like I said though, I’m only assuming that’s how people who’re driving like nuts on the road react, so I can see how they would not spot a police car. I’d rather they avoided me than spotted a police car.

Nonsense. Naive unskilled nonsense at that.

I was talking about on track

Not many police cars there are there?

if you’re concentrating on the surface/traffic conditions as much as you should be when driving at speed, keeping an eye out for cameras is distracting

Now there I disagree. You need to concentrate on what’s at the roadside just as much as what’s on the road. So speed cameras, police cars, people about to pull out, cyclists, dogs, children with balls etc etc.

Good drivers are few and far between, like Dodos

I’m an excellent driver.

that’s why I can drive waaaay beyond the speed limit, pished, texting/yakking on a mobile and stuffing a bigmac into my face. No need to look where I’m going, the car does that for me. Fixed penalties = the government says it’s doing something about the roads, so no need for as many cops in cars = fewer of them. woohoo.

@coffeeking – if you are driving on a track then it is an entirely different proposition as you would not be looking out for police cars or many of the other road hazards normally associated with driving on a public road such as pedestrians and traffic pulling out from side roads.

So basically you disagreed with what I said because you wouldn’t spot a police car in entirely different circumstances?

if you’re concentrating on the surface/traffic conditions as much as you should be when driving at speed, keeping an eye out for cameras is distracting

😯 possibly the daftest thing I think I’ve heard you say coffeeking.

CK – how do you spot safety cars and marshall flags and whether or not the cars around you are about to bin it?

@coffeeking, so when the red deer goes through your windscreen it won’t be your fault, or when you run down some kid that runs out it won’t be your fault?

If your on public roads you need to be aware of every thing, if you can’t be aware you need to be going slower. so you are.

So basically you disagreed with what I said because you wouldn’t spot a police car in entirely different circumstances?

No, jesus people are you lot thick this morning.

I said I assume that IF I/someone were to be driving like a nut on the roads I’d probably not spot a police car or a camera because I’d be more interested in concentrating on traffic positions and speeds and possible dangers from the side of the road than looking at boxes on sticks which 99.9% of the time don’t pose any threat of moving and stepping out, and I’d not spot the colour of a car (unless it was immediately behind me, usually the police are not right behind people that they pull up from what I see on TV shows, they spot them from 3-4 cars back).

CK – how do you spot safety cars and marshall flags and whether or not the cars around you are about to bin it?

Because the flags are part of the possible dangers, much as kids running out from side roads are. Whether cars around are about to bin it has no relationship to their colour.

The overall point being that when driving quickly, or when doing any sort of high speed high risk activity, the least physically important risks get ignored first. Colours, objects you know almost never pose a risk.

I said I assume that IF I/someone were to be driving like a nut on the roads I’d probably not spot a police car or a camera because I’d be more interested in concentrating on traffic positions and speeds and possible dangers from the side of the road than looking at boxes on sticks which 99.9% of the time don’t pose any threat of moving and stepping out, and I’d not spot the colour of a car (unless it was immediately behind me, usually the police are not right behind people that they pull up from what I see on TV shows, they spot them from 3-4 cars back)

So you DO agree with what I originally said then? One of us is clearly thick.

Agreed – but at least the ones that DO get caught really must deserve it because they really couldn’t be concentrating if they don’t spot the police car.

if you’re driving sensibly why would you need to keep an eye out for police or speed cameras?

even so, they’re yellow and at a similar height to most road signs so a good driver would notice them anyway.

So you DO agree with what I originally said then? One of us is clearly thick.

No, they are concentrating on keeping the car on the road, not spotting “financial” dangers.

if you’re driving sensibly why would you need to keep an eye out for police or speed cameras?

Of course, I was never arguing that these people were driving sensibly, just that you can still be driving perfectly capably (in a car control and traffic watching sense) and not spot the colour of a car.

No, they are concentrating on keeping the car on the road, not spotting “financial” dangers.

You are missing your own point (which is actually the same as mine) – if you are driving so fast you are unable to see a police car then you are clearly not concentrating enough are you? Then you are exactly the sort of person that deserves to be caught because not only are you driving like an idiot, you are so beyond your ability as a driver that you are missing potential hazards – the fact it is a financial hazard is irrelevant – you are clearly not able to concentrate to the level required of you.

you can still be driving perfectly capably (in a car control and traffic watching sense) and not spot the colour of a car

I disagree completely – and we are not talking about just the colour, we are talking about a marked police car which, in all probability, will cause almost all other drivers around you to alter their driving too so it is very important to be able to distinguish one. Why do you think they are marked in the way they are? So they blend into traffic or so they are clearly visible to all road users?

Nope – you should know the colour of the car – a crucial piece of info along with sex and age and number of occupants. I do this purely reflexively. Eery car around me no matter what I am riding / driving

If you know the colour of the cars around you you know if one has changed so you know the hazard has changed. If you don’t know the colour then this piece of info is missing

You are missing your own point (which is actually the same as mine) – if you are driving so fast you are unable to see a police car then you are clearly not concentrating enough are you? Then you are exactly the sort of person that deserves to be caught because not only are you driving like an idiot, you are so beyond your ability as a driver that you are missing potential hazards – the fact it is a financial hazard is irrelevant – you are clearly not able to concentrate to the level required of you.

I see where you’re going, but my point was subtly different. I agree that it’s too fast for a public road if you’re not able to spot who’s where on the road, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad driver (which is differnt from a public road driver).

Nope – you should know the colour of the car – a crucial piece of info along with sex and age and number of occupants.

Nonsense, that’s too much information that’s totally irrelevant. The amount of mental time used to take that in does not stack up to the benefits of knowing it.

Bloody ‘ell Coffeeking… Can’t drive for toffee and I bet your wife is ‘dissatisfied’ as well…. 😉

Well its clear you are not observation to any sort of a decent standard then. I know this always without it distracting me at all – easy to process. And it is very relevant – as you know if the car behind you has changed and you can spot the aggressive and inattentive drivers

Bloody ‘ell Coffeeking… Can’t drive for toffee and I bet your wife is ‘dissatisfied’ as well….

Errrr ok. WTF are you on about? Absolutely nothing in these posts has told you anything that you could deduct about my road driving skills.

Well its clear you are not observation to any sort of a decent standard then. I know this always without it distracting me at all – easy to process

I never said distracting, I said pointless to know. Knowing the number and sex of the occupants tells me nothing I need to know on the road.

Sorry, just trying to inject a bit of brevity… Two things you shouldn’t have a go at a bloke about; his driving and his sh@gging. Off now to leave you to carry on bickering. TTFN.

Ah but it does – young male with car full of pals – likely to be agressive and fast. Young mum car full of kids – likely to be innatentive, old person – slow but dithery – etc etc.. Its all a part of the info you need to be a safe driver.

Sorry, just trying to inject a bit of brevity… Two things you shouldn’t have a go at a bloke about; his driving and his sh@gging. Off now to leave you to carry on bickering. TTFN.

I’m happy to have my driving analysed, come along one day (by someone in the car, rather than an assumption making bunch morons on a forum). As for the other – well you’ll have to just take my word on that, you’re not my type 😆

Ah but it does – young male with car full of pals – likely to be agressive and fast. Young mum car full of kids – likely to be innatentive, old person – slow but dithery – etc etc.. Its all a part of the info you need to be a safe driver.

Making assumptions like that will get you killed. Assume all drivers are aggressive nuts and you’ll be a bit safer. There are countless cases every day on my commute of each of those being wrong.

Nonsense, that’s too much information that’s totally irrelevant.

Again I take issue with that.

I see a Silver Rover 45 with a pair of old people in in the near distance ahead of me, I would reasonably expect the car to be driving slowly and make very hesitant manoeuvres.

If I saw a lowered, blacked out Citroen Saxo VTS with a big bore exhaust and 5 occupants I would reasonably expect it to be driving erratically as the driver will be distracted by the 14 yr old girls in the back and be half way through a McHappyMeal.

It is all about reading all the potential threats around you.

Ohh heck – not only am I in agreement with TJ, I have pretty much written exactly the same 🙂

if you’re driving sensibly why would you need to keep an eye out for police or speed cameras?

…because what you think is sensible and what the copper judges to be sensible can be very different. That’s the problem with “dangerous driving” as many have pointed out. There is a degree of subjectivity about it. Speed cameras have an easy job; you’re either breaking the speed limit or you aren’t.

Many years back I got caught doing nearly a ton on the M74 by an unmarked police car. I had no defence and accepted the points and fine. However the policeman did point out that whilst he was within his rights to do me for dangerous driving, he acknowledged the road was quiet and the conditions excellent so did not see it as dangerous. Conversely someone doing 70mph (instead of their usual 90mph) on a motorway in heavy rain/fog/whatever may think they’re being sensible by slowing down when actually they are still driving dangerously.

You can educate people and you can fine people but ultimately we’re all independent spirits who make our own judgement calls. I’m all for this idea but I just hope the coppers police it sensibly.

It is all about reading all the potential threats around you.

Everyone is a potential threat, treat them all the same. Keep your distance, predict they’ll do something stupid when you least expect it and you’ll be a bit safer. Start reading their contents and assuming how they’ll drive is like seeing a black guy and assuming he’s more likely to rob you, racist (or stereotyping in this case) and stupid.

Ohh heck – not only am I in agreement with TJ, I have pretty much written exactly the same

Time for a Decontamination Shower….

Everyone is a potential threat, treat them all the same.

When you have come to a mental conclusion about the driving then yes, but what TJ and I are saying is that by building a picture as you approach other drivers you are better prepared. And the more information you have, the better prepared you are.

When you have come to a mental conclusion about the driving then yes, but what TJ and I are saying is that by building a picture as you approach other drivers you are better prepared. And the more information you have, the better prepared you are.

No, I just don’t see it I’m afraid. Collecting all that info, using it to predict how each car will behave and possibly being wrong on every point – all a waste of time. Assume they’re a threat in every way possible covers all bases and takes less concentration over all, no need for a mental picture or to profile how they’ll drive then be surprised. Just drive like they’re a nut and if they’re not you’re better off.

I agree I could be wrong on every point, but I don’t alter my driving because of the perceived threat, I am just aware that there could be one. Without mentally collecting that information in the first place I have less information and therefore I am less prepared.

Your driving style sounds very unobservant – have you been driving for long? Or perhaps you are just not consciously aware of just what information your brain is actually sub-conciously gathering.

For example – think about your last car journey – can you recall any of the colours, makes, models of any of the cars that were around you, remember the colour of that car that turned right just before the turning into your drive, recall that it turned without indicating? I know I can recall much of what went on around me in my last journey.

Assume they’re a threat in every way possible covers all bases

I’d argue that this could take more mental processing power than making sensible conclusions about what might realistically happen as per TJ’s argument. I could drive along a clear road assuming every car coming the other way is going to swerve into my lane, but realistically that’s not going to happen. However I’d be more cautious if I saw a driver not paying attention, shouting at the kids in the back seat, looking at the view etc etc

a crucial piece of info along with sex and age and number of occupants.

why is the sex, age and number of occupants in a car crucial information?

For example – think about your last car journey – can you recall any of the colours, makes, models of any of the cars that were around you, remember the colour of that car that turned right just before the turning into your drive, recall that it turned without indicating? I know I can recall much of what went on around me in my last journey.

that’s just bollocks, sorry, I can remember a car driving up my arse, but wtf has it’s colour or make got to do with anything? I observed a car that looked like it was going to pull out in front of me, and it did, but because I was expecting it I had slowed (which might have given them the indication they had time to pull out) and so didn’t charge up their arse. Can’t remember what make or model of car, and because I couldn’t see the driver that well I have no idea what sex they were either, it’s ok though because no one died.