Sigh…

It seems I will have to join the car owning population.

It needs to be less than £200 VED, and something that will be fairly reliable. I’m thinking maybe a Mondeo, a Mazda 6 or something German because the other person driving it seems to value intangible things like “build quality” (my opinion is that they’re all built to a safety standard so they’re as safe as each other, maybe some are a bit safer).

Don’t want to lease either. This is as much a lesson in car ownership for me as anything else.

I’m a complete stranger to buying cars, so if you’ve got any tips there then please feel free to pass them on!

Blue one.

No wait, a red one, maybe.

Older shape, 1.6 petrol, C-max?

Bought mine for £5k 5 years ago*, it’s now worth about £1.5k and has only done about 85,000miles, and still not let me down**. Does about 38-42mpg and I service it on my driveway for about £35 a year averaged out, our local one occasional does deals on oil like a gallon of the correct spec Morris oil for £12.

If it’s only 2 years, and you’re not doing galactic mileages then I’d not worry too much about high VED or economy, you’ll pay more for the car than you’ll save, and low VED + high economy would mean modern diesel, and i’d be nervous buying an older one of those compared to a basic petrol engine.

*I paid over the odds I’ll admit, but I needed a car there and then and the garage did put new tires and brake pads on it.
**well once, but they all blew their power steering hose at 30,000miles and the warranty covered that.

or something German because the other person driving it seems to value intangible things like “build quality” (my opinion is that they’re all built to a safety standard so they’re as safe as each other, maybe some are a bit safer).

Build quality surely isn’t just about safety? What about things not breaking off or rusting? My £5k German estate has done me over 10 years now. Still, I suspect Japanese are just as good if not better.

I believe the STW wisdom is to steer clear of cheap (high mileage) modern diesels. Get a normally aspirated petrol.

Avensis, petrol, sorted.

*edit*

Ahem. See above.

Still, I suspect Japanese are just as good if not better.

Get a normally aspirated petrol.

Verso, petrol, sorted.

I would be going jap if i wanted build quality.

German build quality.

No thanks they aint very good at it.

I would be going jap if i wanted build quality.,,,

Ignore me though i have 2 french cars and a british one in my house…..

( none unreliable though)

@thisisnotaspoon
That looks interesting. I will add it to my currently very short list. So far, it’s a Passat, or a BMW 3 series including the Mondeo.

@slowoldman
Ok. So no modern diesels. That means the 6 year old Passat I was eyeing up is out.

You’re right, build quality is about more than just safety. However, I thought even some German models had problems with rust? Any in particular I should avoid?

And noting your other point too. No turbos.

What is considered high mileage for an estate please? Also, what is the simplest way to find out what maintenance will be required apart from searching for the car and known faults/required maintenance on the internet?

What is considered high mileage for an estate please?

Do not go on miles, go on owner and state of the vehicle. How has it be driven and looked after more important than miles IMO.

Build quality isn’t just about safety standards, it’s about things not falling apart, breaking off and generally costing you a fortune in repairs.

But there’s basic safety standards and then there’s bucket loads of extras that aren’t required by law. Passenger airbag, side impact bags / protection, good crumple zones, ABS, and fancy new things like autonomous braking that predicts a collision.

NCAP ratings will tell you the safety stuff. Top will be Volvo probably.

If choice is driven by OH, then you’ll end up with some monster vehicle that protects everyone inside but takes up the space of a bus. Like you find round by schools 😉 . If you want something practical to carry stuff in it though, a regular estate or large booted hatch will do.

Build quality – as a Civic owner, Honda gets my thumbs up there.

@slowoldman
Ok. So no modern diesels. That means the 6 year old Passat I was eyeing up is out.

My Passat is a 2000 W reg Petrol. I bought it at 60k miles and it’s currently just over 160k miles. It’s not very economical, a few things don’t work anymore and I keep thinking about getting rid, but it’s comfortable and carries lots of stuff when I need it to.

@matt_outandabout
Any specifics on figuring out how well it has been looked after? The minimal knowledge I have is to look for full service history, no incidents (cat C,D vehicles?) and that any upcoming maintenance has been done. Should I steer clear of cars that have had some work done, like this Audi?

@deadkenny
Choice is completely up to me because I’m footing the bill. I must admit looking at a Subaru Forester for £2k just for the heck of it though!

Build quality – as a Civic owner, Honda gets my thumbs up there.

That’d be high on my list, along with Avensis, a Passat and possibly 3 series tourer.

On a side issue, is it true the Accord is no more?

My Passat is a 2000 W reg Petrol. I bought it at 60k miles and it’s currently just over 160k miles. It’s not very economical

It’s difficult, but I reckon it’d actually be close over that sort of lifetime with the diesel, assuming you service etc. One DMF clutch failure covers a lot of tanks of petrol v diesel.

Any specifics on figuring out how well it has been looked after?

Buy privately, meet the owner.

Is (s)he a baseball cap wearing yoof with a stack of MaxPower mags and he keeps telling you how well it pulls off from start…

Or is it a 50 year old gent who is changing the car for a same model, just newer, as he likes everything to be perfect? Is the service history there, with all invoices in date order, in punch pockets in a folder? Do they use the local specialist garage to maintain ‘as the mechanic knows how well I want it doing’…

Judge the owner.

German build quality.

No thanks they aint very good at it.

I would be going jap if i wanted build quality.,,,

My last 4 cars (all from new, kept for 2-3 years) have been 2 Japanese, 2 German (Honda, Mazda, BMW, Audi, in that order, all similar class of car). Trust me, the build quality in the German cars is a class above the Japanese ones (its where the extra money goes, partly), although all of them were acceptable.

Perhaps you mean reliability, which although related in some cases, is different to build quality. Japanese always do better than the German manufacturers in the reliability surveys (although they are skewed towards the expectations of the owners IMO). Not had a single problem with any of the cars above in the time I had them though.

You’re right, build quality is about more than just safety. However, I thought even some German models had problems with rust? Any in particular I should avoid?

90’s Mercs, but you won’t be looking at many of those (because they all rusted away).

Mileage is just a number, some things wear out predictably, others don’t.

Most engines/cars are probably good for 200,000+ miles these days as engines are so well built, so high mileage in itself isn’t an issue. But past 120,000 things like turbos, DMF’s, diesel injectors etc are going to start to fail. You might be fine for 2 years, might be fine for 10 years. Or you could be unlucky and have all the injectors go, the turbo fail (and the replacement if some bits fall into the oil in the engine and block the new one), the DMF wear out, EGR valves sticking left right and center, all in 2 years. Basically modern diesels will be great 95% of the time, the rest is catastrophic.

Petrol engines on the other hand are far less stressed, the worst that you’ll likely get is a sensor fails and needs replacing.

As for regular predictable costs:
Tyres every 2-3 years depending on you and the car, could be <1, my rears are mentioned in the doomsday book I think. Unless it’s something sporty/unusual then they’re all much the same prices, so a 3-series with run-flat tyres on low profile rims will make you weep, 195/60-16 on a focus are £60 a corner. Ditto brake pads.

Servicing – £100-£150 a year for the basic service at an independant garrage, cambelts come around every so often and cost £350-£800 to replace depending on car. Check the service history to see when/if it was done (VAG group cars are short intervals IIRC around 35,000, most others are 80,000+ miles).

Everything else is just down to what’s worn out that year (handbrake cables, hub bearings, disks, clutch etc). Just down to luck and usage.

One thing to bear in mind when looking at big expensive cars that are now bargains (3-series is borderline, 5-series definitely), is yes you get a lot of car for the money, but the servicing/repairs are all going to cost as much as they did when the car was new, so you’re servicing a £50k car with associately high priced parts not a £20k mondeo (ford parts are probably among the cheapest).

My last 4 cars (all from new, kept for 2-3 years) have been 2 Japanese, 2 German (Honda, Mazda, BMW, Audi, in that order, all similar class of car).

Not had a single problem with any of the cars above in the time I had them though.

I would expect not at 2-3 years old on any car.

A £4k, older and higher miles car however is where things start to show massive differences, in my experience of running 60-180k, 3-10 year old cars for the last 15 years.

Volvo v50?

You seem to have justified that nicely to your self their angeldust.

Reliability is my measure of build quality.

If i wanted a nice place to sit that doesnt move , id put a sofa in the garage,

An Accord tourer. I love mine. It’s up to 117k and the only issue it’s had was a rear wheel bearing that cost £150 to replace. Very big, very comfortable, all the toys you could want and Honda build the most reliable car on the road. 4k will get you an executive spec with leather and you’ll not lose much come resale time.

If I were you I’d be going Avensis, Mazda 6 or Honda Accord. While they may not be as nice a place to sit as a German car they are the pinnacle of reliability. It took 14 years for my family to kill a 1997 Honda Civic, and even then it was the bits Rover had made for it that died.

@thisisnotaspoon
Thank you for that. Some excellent information there!

@T1000
Yes, looked at some Volvos, but I have heard they are expensive to replace when things go wrong. How reliable are they?

@joolsburger
Will look at Hondas too, thanks!

@munrobiker
A Mazda 6 is on the list!

So I now have:
3 Series
Mazda 6
Accord

No love for the £1500 Audi then? 🙁 My heart says, buy a cheap German car and run it for a couple of years and get rid. My head says spend a bit more and buy something a little less comfy, but more reliable.

OP, It might be worth giving some more details.

Why an estate? Is there another suitable option you haven’t thought of?
Estimated mileage per annum?
Local driving or open roads?
Lots of short journies or long distance A-road/motorway cruising?

Regarding the petrol/diesel thing – you’ll never get any agreement on this – some people regard them as financial time bombs and some don’t.
I think a lot of it comes down to how the car is driven & partly, luck of the draw.
I know a bloke who vowed never to buy another Ford diesel after his owned from new Focus TDCi gave him a ton of problems. But, he lives about 1 mile from work & drives to and from work every day in that car. Really? Is it any surprise it wasn’t running too well?

On the other hand, I’ve put 247k miles on my Ibiza diesel in 9 years & it has been amazingly reliable. The only engine related components that have failed and are arguably diesel specific are the boost pipes between intercooler & engine. I have replaced two of them.
Other than that, turbo is original, as are clutch & DMF, injectors, fuel pump etc. all the things that will apparently send you into financial meltdown. It’s even on it’s original exhaust.
And my Wife’s 12 plate Ibiza TDi has never skipped a beat & is on 45k miles.

Cars I would consider:

Toyota Avensis estate
Skoda Octavia estate
Ford Mondeo estate
Citroen C5 estate
Honda Accord estate.

Cars like the Passat are good cars, but the badge holds a premium for me that isn’t worth the extra cost. But, your views might differ.

As per usual, lots of opinions, not very many helpful!

A couple of omissions from the OP that might help the more useful posters be able to point you in the right direction…

-You don’t mention expected mileage. No point in us recommending petrols if you expect to do 50k a year, but likewise if you do 5k then diesel is a total waste of time.

-What do you need to carry in it? Not all estate cars are created the same. If you need to carry lots, then a Mondeo or a Passat should be high on the list of priorities as the 3 series BMW is tiny by comparison. If you only need to get 2 people and a couple of bikes in, the 3 series will be more than big enough.

I would expect not at 2-3 years old on any car.

Agreed. One of the reasons I keep a new car.

Reliability is my measure of build quality

Fair enough, but it means something else to most people, including the motoring press, though I suppose you think you know better than them :lol:. When you are have had 10+ years of 100% reliability, levels of build quality mean something else.

– Estate because it’ll need to carry 2 people + bikes when I’m using it. I don’t want to use roof racks.
– Mileage estimate around 6000 a year.
– Journey type. Short journeys in the week (under 10 miles each trip) and 1-2 long journeys of 200 miles plus per month. The above and this reason are why I discounted diesels.

@stumpy01
Exactly my feelings regarding the badge. But if it makes the other person driving it more trusting then I’d happily pay 10-15% on top.

Also worth considering something like a Honda CRV or Toyota Rav 4 as the depreciation is so low and they are both almost estate sized.

With your mileage I’d by a petrol and I wouldn’t get too worried about the VED since many petrols aren’t great and it’s not going to be the biggest part of your ownership. Even at £4k depreciation is the biggest cost and that’s where a german car usually wins.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201512129408397?price-from=4000&sort=default&search-target=usedcars&price-to=4500&radius=1501&page=1&body-type=estate&make=honda&postcode=KT8%209LG&onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&model=accord&logcode=p

Yarp!

In fairness, i think to just about anyone build quality = reliability (with an allowance for the reliability of stuff like interior trim).

In fairness, i think to just about anyone build quality = reliability (with an allowance for the reliability of stuff like interior trim).

Read a new car review for a BMW, Audi, or VW from someone like Whatcar. It will say that ‘build quality is superb’, but ‘the manufacturer doesn’t do too well in reliability surveys due to frequent electrical issues etc etc’, or something like that. Thats where the difference is.

Still think your view is what ‘everybody’ thinks?

Nearly 3 years ago, I bought an 05 plate Mazda 6 petrol estate with 120k miles on it for £1300.

It’s never let me down.

Buy privately, assess the last owner and you won’t go far wrong (unless you’re really unlucky).

I equate “build quality” as something separate to “engine reliability”. Like someone else said though, it doesn’t have to be the engine failing that makes your car a non-runner sometimes.

Build quality to my mind now is that satisfying “thunk” a door makes when you shut it, or how nice the gearbox feels when you shift. Can’t think of much else to be honest.

+1 for the Toyota Avensis estate.

I’ll be getting a new one when mine dies, I’ve been saying that for about 4 years now.

Choice is completely up to me because I’m footing the bill. I must admit looking at a Subaru Forester for £2k just for the heck of it though!

You’ll be hard pressed to find a car with better “build quality”, even among other Subarus.
Comfy and reliable too.

I recently bought an 07 Passat TFSI with 100k – so far its been excellent. At the same time a good friend bought a Mazda 6, with slightly slightly fewer miles for slightly less cash. Nothing wrong with it, except that the front headlight bulb needed replacing, for which he had to take the wheel arch lining off. Changing a bulb shouldn’t take the best part of an hour. I haven’t had to replace any bulbs on the Passat yet, but all of my previous German cars have been very well thought out. Not a lot of point to this anecdote really. that is all. Carry on.

You don’t have the take the wheel arch lining off. You put the steering on full lock, undo a couple of lining screws and slip your hand in. Granted, it’s not as easy as opening the bonnet but it’s no more than 20mins.

Also, you’ll be hard pressed to find a modern car where access in the engine bay to headlights is easy.

Re, the build quality/reliability thing – reliability in my mind is how often does the thing break down. Build quality is how solidly put together it is, e.g. ‘nice’ plastics, how many creaks & rattles are there, is the action of the air vents smooth or jerky when adjusted, does the cup holder sag and wobble about with a full drink in it?

Using the cup holder as an (shit) example…..it might always have rattled & it always lurches around alarmingly with a full Starbucks in it, but it has never failed to hold my cup of coffee successfully. Build quality is rubbish, reliability is excellent.

My Ibiza falls heavily into the high reliability, but poor build quality camp. Luckily for my requirements that is the correct way round.

@stumpy01
You have it!

I think I’ll wind up with either an Accord, BMW or VW to be honest. Nobody seems to have any love for Audis. Or VWs come to think of it. But I have a VW currently and it’s been very reliable.

Renault Megane Estate, 4 years old, 76k , main dealer