Needless to say I am NOT best pleased.

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Needless to say I am NOT best pleased.

23 posts & 11 voices | Started 6 months ago by Olly | Latest reply from Olly

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Olly - Member

following on from here, you can probably guess what it coming:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-are-my-options-for-120mm-forks

was feeling the need to treat myself, so decided to get rid of my crunchy CaneCack OE headset, and replace it with a nice Hope one.
the can creek one has NEVER seated properly, so i figured they could sort that too.

i was convinced it was the headtube. ive had a straight edge on the steerer more times than i care to remember, and its always come up true (in my eyes). so i was pretty convinced the head tube (giant trance) had been faced wrong. Taller at the front than the back.

if that was the case, the bike shop said, they could/would sort it.

Anyhoo. He is convinced its the steerer.

I tried everything to persuade him that it was the headset. From: "its been like that since the frame was new" (i built the bike myself) to: "ive had it apart and measured it all over"

ANYHOO.

i "Forked" out for some new Rebas. 120mm, 20mm maxle, All travel, black box. Very nice. Bargin price of 400 quid thanks Winstanleys. (before you say LBS, the LBS in question "only really has longer travel stuff")

TURNS OUT, my Box fresh Rebas are JUST as bent as my revelations!
either that or....
you get the idea.

So, 400 quid well burnt. and an excess of forks.

I presume it is possible to face a headtube so that the top matches the bottom and im not just being picky....
had they not "fitted the headset anyway" after diagnosing that the headset wasn't the problem. (i could have just swapped the bearings out in the cartridge Canecack one) i may well have spend the 400 quid on a cotic instead...

@ a bit of a loss now. Do I throw good moneys after "bad" and get the headset pushed out, and refaced by a different shop (who may still mess it up)
the whole debarcle came from wanting to straighten the damn thing, so it seems daft to have a new headset, and new forks, which replaced perfectly good prior versions and then NOT have it straight.

Posted 6 months ago #
float - Member

cant you send the forks/headset back and put the old stuff back in with the frame being faced?

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

WELL. just been to double check it all, and noticed that the "as new, special price" forks have also got a blemish in the stations. maybe 1 mm across, but definitely a small "bubble" hole in the upper coat of the stanchions, so a small but sharp edged depression

The LBS who did the headset (i would have done it myself if it wasn't for the facing) will have binned the old headset

ffs.

Posted 6 months ago #
Northwind - Member

Lucky escape that, gives you a legitimate reason to return forks for refund.

Now... Check things like this with borrowed/cheap parts, and get second opinions. Buying a £400 fork based on the info you've given was a bit brave. Oh and find a new LBS.

Posted 6 months ago #
epicyclo - Member

How old is the frame?

A squint head-tube = not fit for purpose IMO.

Can you get the original retailer to pay for the facing, or replace the frame? Giant don't usually have those sort of problems.

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

Lucky escape that, gives you a legitimate reason to return forks for refund.

inclined to agree i think.

frame is only 2008. (2009 model) bought frame only.
im not too worried about the headtube i dont think, but its just buying stuff new it should be RIGHT shouldnt it?

I got a second opinion from the LBS, but as with all these things, the second opinion never takes as much care and time as the owner (bleed your own brakes kids)

as for the checking with other parts, the headtube on the ice breaker (see picture in thread linked at the top) negates all but box fresh forks for that purpose.

bikes are shit

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

SO. The bubble in the fork stanchion:

small I know, and on 40% off forks. but new forks are new forks...

Bike with original revelations fitted:

its not completely clear on the photo, it looks like it could just be a wonky seal, but that IS how wonky they are...

and lastly, new forks (hence stupid spacer configuration)

your thoughts (and prayers) greatly appreciated.

Posted 6 months ago #
jambon - Member

Wierd, looks more like the top BB cup is bent rather than the frame.

But what do I know.

Posted 6 months ago #
porter_jamie - Member

what is happening at the bottom bearing? all ok there? are you anywhere near essex, because i could pop the frame on the granite table and measure the headtube height front and back on the height gauge to see if the top has been machined on the piss. fairly simple job to machine a bit off to square it up

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

no where near essex im afradi Jamie.

ive had a steel ruler on it, its half a mm shorter at the back i think....
obviously with those tolerences its pretty hard to measure without Vernier calipers

also, the bottom looks hunky dory to me

ALSO. i doubt its the cups, as it is the exact same problem as the previous headset had...

Posted 6 months ago #
cookeaa - Member

All this "Facing" of the head tube it's an integrated jobbie innit? Isn’t the inner counter-bore/shoulder as important as the end faces for the proper square mounting of the headset...

Is it wise to keep skimming material off the end of the Head tube if the inner bores are out of concentricity?

Has anyone with more than an NVQ level one in pumping up tires and tightening stem bolts actually attempted to measure the head tube or has an LBS gibbon just arbitrarily assumed the HT "needs facing" and charged you for the privilege

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

It is, and i agree cookeaa, however i am going on the concept that as long as the outer edge is flush, that is what dictates the level of the headset.
otherwise there would be a gap beneath the cup...
im pretty sure the "bore" is deeper than required for the headset (though if not quite straight, sure, it wont help)

I measured it sever times, which is why i sent it in for facing, rather than buying a new headset and putting it in myself (which I can do at home)

I am ASSUMING they did face it, but have never had a problem with the guys before, they are always helpful so have no reason to suspect a half arsed job.

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

park confirm my deductions i think: the "level" is dictated by the face

Lip of bearing cup presses against headtube face.

Posted 6 months ago #
jambon - Member

Level is dictated by the face, hence my comment about the top cup being dodgy, but hey, obviously not that. I've owned a Trance and a Reign and swapped out the headsets with no bother at all.

Yep, looks like the two cups arn't sitting concentrically for some reason, as you tighten the bearings it goes all on the piss.

You have my sympathies...

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

you may well be right Jambon.

have emailed RE fork, and will have to make another trip to the bike shop at the weekend I guess...

Posted 6 months ago #
cookeaa - Member

If you can lay your hands on a halfway decent set of calipers, try and establish precisely what is on the piss...

I think you said you'd checked end to end length front and back...

Can you measure the counter-bore depths relative to the ends of the tube at both the top and bottom, on say 4 or 8 points around the circumference just to see if that gives you a better idea of which end might be out of square?

Also it might be worth trying to look at wall thicknesses on the quarters just to see if one or other of the bores is off center.

Posted 6 months ago #
letmetalktomark - Member

I experienced exactly the same problem resulting in new headset and forks like yourself.

After a whole heap of head scratching and tea drinking it was solved by both a face and a ream of the ht.

You to have my sympathies.

Posted 6 months ago #
bigyinn - Member

Is it possible that the headset internal bore is on the piss?

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

i have sent the LBS a friendly email (hi Dan) just outlining the events to date, and what i reckon is wrong. Sent the two photos above, and have given them a shot across the bows that i hope to pop in on saturday and have a chat. i HOPE they have a pair of callipers and a helpful head on, but we will see. im pretty certain an accurate measure of front height and back height will make it obvious.

Posted 6 months ago #
Euro - Member

Is there play in the headset or is it a visual thing? Any other handling issues? You've flipped the stem, what's it like the right way round?

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

its a visual thing, but also the bearing wont be in straight, and is open to the muck, so wears out quicker. But mainly im picky.

incidently, i tried installing the fork backwards (rather than just spinning it around in the frame like steering)
and the gap stays on the same side, which yet further confirms the headtube facing imo...

Posted 6 months ago #
Sancho - Member

It's hard to give an accurate opinion on the problem here, without putting the bike in the workshop, but looking at the picture of the headset top race, it does appear to be the frame that is at fault.

Looking at the depth of frame needed to be removed to level it up, Id consider getting your money back for the frame

Posted 6 months ago #
Olly - Member

the frame is a good few years old im afraid.
i didnt notice it at first, and then ignored it.
i measure it as being 0.5mm out, so its not a massive amount to face i dont think...

Posted 6 months ago #