@JunkYard, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
Thanks for the cliche rather than reason.
What most of the senior leadership of the ANC have done since they gained power (Mandella excluded) is become very wealthy.
No other govt does this do they? Are you saying they are human beings?
Woosh as you deliberately miss the point. They have established a democratic govt that represents the country, set up truth and reconciliation councils and led the country fwd peacefully. they have not punished the whites nor ignored international law nor, on gaining freedom, done anything even vaguely "terrorist". They were freedom fighters, they got freedom and they became democratic. you cannot argue against the facts hence this.
I see once agin you've used that tried and tested technique of labelling someone who disagrees with you. In your book anyone who thinks the ANC was a terrorist organisation must be a racist.
I suggest you read what i said [ oh the ironing of sayin i am doing insults] and defeat it with a logical argument rather than emotive and misleading appeals. I see you have used the tired and tested technique of deflection and refusing to accept that fact that all but the very right wing and/or racist considered the ANC and mandela to be freedom fighters [ is this not true then?]. It is why he won over 250 international awards and was the most revered leader of the 20 th Century. Try and negate that rather than say I said you were a racist
Whatever your personal view of the ANC the vast majority of the world population,then and now, viewed them as freedom fighters trying to overthrow an illegitimate, racist and tyrannical government that oppressed the majority and indigenous population, not least because that is what they did.
If you wish to label them terrorists then you are free to do so. You are are on fairly short and ignoble list of racist and/or right wingers.
I am neither racist nor right wing. Just pointing out a fact about the ANC. They ran an armed and violent campaign against the government and against civilians. Indeed there where many racists amongst the white population but I know personally many liberal South Africans who experienced terror attacks against their families, sometimes these where fatal. Your same logic applies to the IRA. You like others like to pigeon hole and attempt to demonise those who don't agree with you. Mandella was an extra-ordinary man of that there is no doubt and I never questioned that.
French media have been reporting that significant numbers of the images being released by Palestinaian sources of injured civilians are actually taken in Syria and had been released previously. Some 2,500 Palestinians, mostly civilians have been killed by Syrian government forces in the conflict there to date. It is another example of the double standards of those who argue so vehemently against Israel when more civilians are being killed in sectarian conflicts elsewhere in the region.
Once again I say how disappointed I am that Hamas could not agree to extend the ceasefire. It is absolutely their "big picture" agenda to try and force world opinion against Israel using the death of civilians. They cannot back down now as they have achieved nothing. Their rhetoric continues about how they are winning and they encourage Palestinais to remain in their homes and not vacate the battle areas as their presence is the best way to defend against air strikes and ground forces.
You like others like to pigeon hole and attempt to demonise those who don't agree with you
Only if you think being called right wing or racist is demonising. Do you?
You like to say I am name calling because you cannot rebut the point
Your same logic applies to the IRA
and you claim I am the one name calling when you go and do that. Again you cannot rebut the point so you do this whilst claiming i am doing it
Either explain with multiple examples of countries/ parties/regimes that are left wing and or liberal that label the ANC as terrorists or accept the point I made.
Emotive explanations of the suffering of your many "liberal" friends in South Africa an argument does not make.
I am happy to condemn Syria and I await you condemning israel. i suspect I will have a longer wait as you continue to blame the victims and hamas for israel killing civilians.
as far as I can tell, it's people killing people cos they don't like 'em for some reason or other. and not having a very good reason. you need a **** good reason to kill children. I have no idea how people livbe with themselves after cold blooded killing children
I'm increasingly of the belief that the Israeli forces on the ground and the Hamas fighters are out of the control of their political leaders. Hamas fighters are so crazed by religious fervour and hatred that they couldn't stop their members from launching 20 rockets into Israel before the truce had ended and most of the Israeli soldiers are so gung-ho or stoned that they don't obey whatever orders are passed down to them.
Moderate Palestinians and and Israelis are afraid to object to what's happening for fear of being attacked by the zealots.
Hamas fighters are so crazed by religious fervour and hatred
An interesting proposition but have you got any evidence to back it up ?
There is some evidence to suggest the contrary, ie, rather than being crazed by religious fervour and hatred Hamas are actually rather pragmatic and prepared to enter into negotiations. Which presumably is partly the reason why they were encouraged to participate in the EU funded elections of 2006, and which they won in Gaza with a comfortable majority. It's unlikely that politicians crazed by religious fervour would have won the election.
They are also prepared to comply with ceasefires and use their authority to enforce it on others. They are however fully entitled to defend themselves under international law when attacked by Israel and the subject of illegal Israeli measures.
They do of course hate the Israeli state, (or the "Zionist entity" as they like to call it, and they almost never use the term Jewish preferring to focus on the fact that it's the Zionists which they consider their enemies not Jews). So I guess that's true.
But you don't have to be crazed by religion to hate the Zionist state, in fact many atheists do. And I suspect the only thing that me and Hamas can totally agree on is a deep dislike of Israel.
THIS IS SO INCREDIBLY **** UP. I can't believe that this is actually happening, and nobody is doing anything about it. What happened to the goverment that we trust to rule us? How can we simply trust them anymore. Why are we just sitting by an allowing this all to happen? I don't know. It's not about sides here, but about humanity. And that is NOT humane. I want to do something. But what? What can we actually do? God I feel so **** powerless.
I've tweeted (wow - like that will make a difference ) all my local MP's (a few times now) to ask what they are doing with the political power at their disposal to bring pressure to bear on their party leaders to take a stance but i've not heard back from any of them, so the next time they come knocking on my door they'll be getting told exactly what they can do with their vote, only one independent bothered to reply with an obviously standard response.
You're quite right it's not humane, and yeah - we are pretty powerless , you only have to view some of the reports that have been leaked online to see the distress and frustration that the reporters have for the situation in Gaza - these are people that have reported from conflicts across the world yet many are now taking a stance albeit in a backhanded way as otherwise it may taint the impartiality of the public broadcasts and that will open up another debate.
Start with your elected MP - find out their stance, if you don't get a satisfactory respond then go above him or to another local MP, keep asking them "what are you doing to bring pressure on your party leader to take a stance on this issue?".
It probably won't make the slightest difference, but it makes you feel better for a few minutes.
I was going to post a link to a twitter account that a friend has recently tweeted me of an aid worker who is currently active out there - but i decided against it as some of the tweets/photos would inevitably get posted up on here and from past modding i imagine this thread would get shut rather quick, #gaza and i'm sure you'll find them.
Sigh……..in the meantime (like i have for decades) continue to shun Israeli produce whether that be supermarket produce/clothing (funkier on chain reaction for example) or whatever and whenever i get the chance i mention why i'm shunning it unless it has a statement as to it's policy, quite a few companies now recognise the need to distance themselves from the Zionist regime.
I met enough IDF solders on leave in India/Goa to form a pretty solid opinion of them, they have no respect for any culture nor race apart from themselves.
Hora - the US wrote the book on channelling public money into the hands of rapacious corporations. The military industrial complex being a huge beneficiary.
Thats what all the 'War on Terror' crap was about. Ratchet up the paranoia to justify ploughing billions upon billions into sometimes bonkers projects.
Ironically, the only time that the Americans managed to drag the Israeli's to the negotiating table (which led to the Oslo accords) was by threatening to cut this huge military lifeline. They could do that again tomorrow if they wanted too. But theres just no will in Washington to do this. They're happy to keep supplying the arms for them to keep butchering Palestinians.
i've not commented for a few days on account of celebrating Eid...unlike those in Palestine and Gaza in particular who dont really have much to celebrate at the moment...
but looking at some of the comments i'm disappointed to see the thread has been pulled off topic by dragging the ANC's and Mandela's struggle against apartheid being dragged through the mud...the whataboutery kings have managed their objective in justifying Israel's actions by trying to compare it to all else in the world...
What is happening in Iraq and Syria is highly relevant to Gaza and the responce we see here and elsewhere.
how is it relevant? please enlighten us...
the way i see it is this...what is happening in Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan is different in that they are civil wars where one group of indigenous people conflict with another group of indigenous people
Israel/Palestine is not the same....it is the result of an invading force illegally occupying another's lands and subjecting them to brutal imprisonment and attack.
if you want to look at it from the only way i would ever agree with you Jambalaya is that Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan?Israel/Palestine have one thing in common...the root cause is the West.
the West created Assad and helped arm him to the teeth and allowed him to carry out his brutal dictatorship on his people...even now when they had a chance to step in to do something their response was pitiful...they have no reason to step in as there is no economic incentive for them in Syria i.e. no natural resources to plunder.
with Iraq the West again created Saddam and helped arm him to fight against the Iranians...while he was doing this he was busy brutalising his own people...but again the west was happy to allow him to do this as he still served a purpose...once that purpose had been fulfilled they moved in on him and his country's resources under the misconception that he had WMD's (which have still not been proven to exist)...in doing so they have turned Iraq into a lawless state which has now been overrun by fundamentalist nutjob psychos such as ISIS.
with Afghanistan the West allowed the Taliban and the Mujahideen to flourish...they trained them and armed them during the conflict with Russia and once that was over encouraged them to take control of the country...they then sat idly and watched the brutal treatment the Afghan people suffered...they also trained Osama and allowed him to flourish in this environment...and again when they moved in what happened?
they didnt find him but managed to destroy the country in the process...turning it into a lawless state ripe for the pickings of extremist nutjobs...this is after they had plundered the natural resources first
with Israel the West took land off the Palestinians and gave it to the Israelis then sat back and allowed them to steal the rest of the Palestinian land. when the Palestinians resist this in the only way they know how they are met with brutal disproportionate treatment and again the west watches and does nothing
while you may argue that at the end of the day that the people responsible for the killing are the the ones who actually do the killing...the burden of responsibility for creating the situation in the first place falls on the West.
so while you are happy to point out that there are currently Muslims killing Muslims in other parts of the world...there have been over the course of history scores of Christians and other religious groups that have killed other Christians and other religious groups in equal numbers if not greater...
but i try not to see it that way...religion aside...they are still humans killing other humans for various reasons...and it is wrong
but dragging those conflicts and issues will do nothing to hide the fact that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians
i have openly condemned, and will continue to do so, the crimes carried out on the people of Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan at the hands of the various Muslim groups there...if there was a discussion topic created on STW i would equally be happy to air those condemnations here too
but this thread, as was the other, about Israel and its actions in Palestine and Gaza...and yet again you and all the other Israeli apologists refuse to condemn the actions of Israel
this may be a few years old but he hits the nail on the head...
I don't think anyone believes the Israeli propaganda about "precision" strikes any more. The plain truth is that they are using inaccurate weapons in an inappropriate context, and they don't give a shit how many Untermenschen they kill in the process.
i sense a recurring theme here...
3 Israeli boys go missing and then found dead...Israel blames Hamas and starts its attack on Gaza even though they went missing/found dead in the West Bank...it later turns out that Hamas wasn't involved in the death of the 3 boys
Israel and Hamas agree to a ceasefire only for it to be broken a few hours after...the Israelis accuse Hamas of breaking the ceasefire when they kidnapped an IDF soldier...Israel in retaliation bombs Rafah, killing 40 civilians including another UN school...it later turns out that the soldier had died in combat...so Hamas hadn't kidnapped him after all
still it gives the IDF enough justification to blow up some more women and children...this time as they queued up to buy sweets
Its genocide. Pure and simple. They don't care what flimsy context they hide behind, as long as they have some contrived 'justification' to carry on indiscriminately murdering Palastinians on an industrial scale
Arrested? Don't be silly, it's 'administrative detention'
Yep. The Israelis aren't classing the people they've arrested/detained/captured/kidnapped as POWs. They're terrorists (just like our/the US's 'enemy combatants') and so not subject to the usual protections under the rules of war.