• This topic has 156 replies, 71 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by rkk01.
Viewing 37 posts - 121 through 157 (of 157 total)
  • My my democracy isn't now fair shocker for the losing side
  • mikey74
    Free Member

    Now that’s an interesting point.. Given that the vote essentially boiled won to ‘carry on as we are’ or ‘make a fundamental change to the way the country functions and co-exists with its neighbors’.. I don’t actually think it would have been unreasonable to required the burden of an exceptional majority on the the brexit vote, say 60% with say a proviso that any vote over 50% initiates an automatic repeat vote within a set period, say 2-5 years.

    My thoughts exactly. Just as throughout the campaigning, the burden of proof should have been on the Brexit side to put forward a demonstrable strategic plan of exit. We all know what it’s like to be part of the EU, whereas no one knows what it will be like outside. Obviously, Brexit failed to do this spectacularly.

    Edit:

    The future is now entirely in your hands.

    No it’s not.

    dannyh
    Free Member

    Moody’s lowers economic outlook

    And it starts.

    The Plan, please guys.

    corroded
    Free Member

    More than two thirds of Remainers have degrees and two thirds of Leavers left school at 16. Certainly all the ‘man or woman in the street’ interviews I’ve seen are evidence of Leavers being ignorant, xenophobic, mouth-breathing morons who have been manipulated by ideologues smarter than them. Mostly they seem to be people angry at being left behind by the 21st century and are blaming immigrants and the EU for their plight, rather than themselves and our own governments.
    Many jobs will go. We will all be much poorer. Our children will have far fewer opportunities. Our public services will suffer. On the bright side, we can have bendy bananas again. Well done Britain.

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    P-Jay
    Free Member

    I fear this topic will never go away, and not in an Internet ‘never’ aka a few weeks, but a real world 10-20 years.

    The country is dam near split in two – 70% turnout is huge and 52 v 48 is bloody close – Boris actually impressed me, talk of needing to unite the country with a deal both sides can live with etc – of course Farage who never seems to be far from a mic and has managed to convince everyone was part of the leave campaign (seriously the lie-bus was nothing to do with him) will never be happy with any deal. He seems to think we can tear the lot up and it’s spitfires over Dover and we’re all millionaires with a 10m wall around fortress Britain and its that **** who’s got the Tories down this road.

    The sensible thing to do wil be work this out with the EU, accept that whilst they’re morons the anti-immigration lot should be represented and carry on before we’re all living in mud huts. Given the close result, the outpouring of brexit voters who quickly realised their mistake and the fall out since the result I think the best thing to do would be a revised deal and a second vote – but the hardcore won’t like it, they care to much about ‘winning’ to realise that when we lose, we all lose and when we win, we all win – there aren’t winners and losers in this its all or nothing.

    mikey74
    Free Member

    Boris actually impressed me, talk of needing to unite the country with a deal both sides can live with

    What on Earth did you expect him to say? A 6 year-old could have written that.

    igm
    Full Member

    Richinbish – I admire your optimism. No one whose opinion I value shares it. Starting with Moody’s above.

    Edit: to be fair though ratings agencies have been wrong before

    kayla1
    Free Member

    I think there are a lot of poorly educated/easily led people expecting van loads of brownshirts driving around housing estates, rounding up people with funny accents and/or different coloured skin and sending the buggers back to where they come from, innit, for the jobs and that*. I also think those same poorly educated/easily led people will still be angry in a few years’ time, probably having been fed a different set of excuses for why they’re still poor and downtrodden and why they can’t get decent treatment on the NHS any more, because the promises that were made by the ‘Leave’ campaign were all horseshit.

    * seriously, I spoke to a woman about it on Friday and she was happy because now “there’d be more jobs because we wouldn’t have to send all the jobs abroad”. Seriously. For ****’s sake. A lad said he’d voted to “send them all back”…

    igm
    Full Member

    Boris actually impressed me, talk of needing to unite the country with a deal both sides can live with

    Hoping that the deal we get involves free trade and free movement of people (which is likely if we get anything at all, but we may not) – I can live without farm subsidies.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I wonder if they did cut scotland loose how long it would take for them to tank, now the oils gone how much export demand is there for shortbread and meerkats in tartan

    3/10 – Must try harder

    jond
    Free Member

    “What makes it all the more delicious is that fully 75% of the 18-25 year olds who are whining about the old people denying them their promised future didn’t even bother to turn out and vote… and of those who did vote, a third of them voted for Brexit.”

    Well the ones I’ve seen on tv ‘whinging’ mostly did vote, or were below voting age, so I dunno where you 75% comes from.

    Anyhow – funnily enough, despite being 53 now, I didn’t become interested in politics til I started work (after graduating) – reading the broadsheets showed what a can of worms politics was. I’m sure I’m not the only one, can’t recall those of us doing engineering at uni (one of the most intensive courses) talking much about politics, and that was when Heseltine got a can of paint over him at Manchester uni. I was too busy studying or trying to improve my guitar playing..

    Now that was in the days when kids weren’t a) working so hard to get their grades b) get into their preferred school c) had outside interests which helped with d) e) couldn’t be so complacent at getting decent grades from uni/college and f) taking on part-time jobs to help get themselves through uni (which those of us of a certain age didn’t need to do). Becoming a house/flat owner is probably another reason people start looking in more detail at politics – how things affect them – but in the current climate that’s pretty bloody difficult, especially with high rents, and student loans to repay at some point etc. And never mind socialising. So no wonder they’ve either got other more pressing concerns or activities to busy themselves with.

    dannyh
    Free Member

    More than two thirds of Remainers have degrees and two thirds of Leavers left school at 16. Certainly all the ‘man or woman in the street’ interviews I’ve seen are evidence of Leavers being ignorant, xenophobic, mouth-breathing morons who have been manipulated by ideologues smarter than them. Mostly they seem to be people angry at being left behind by the 21st century and are blaming immigrants and the EU for their plight, rather than themselves and our own governments.
    Many jobs will go. We will all be much poorer. Our children will have far fewer opportunities. Our public services will suffer. On the bright side, we can have bendy bananas again. Well done Britain.

    There it is in the proverbial nutshell.

    The likes of Farage aren’t idiots, they just hold idiotic views. Farage is very emotionally intelligent, you might almost say ‘charismatic’. Beware charismatic politicians.

    What a lot of the Leavers seem to want is socialism where the eligibility for help is determined along national (and a lot of the time, racial) lines.

    So, Nationalist Socialism. Hmmmm. Bit of a mouthful, that. What we need is a snappy abbreviated form of the two words.

    Any suggestions for a snappy term for it?

    kayla1
    Free Member

    🙁

    mdavids
    Free Member

    Richinbish. What a huge steaming pile of emotive, little Britain, spiteful bullshit.

    How much of a piss take is it for the old to tell others to roll up ther sleaves and work harder whilst relaxing in their mortgage free houses with a healthy pension pot, just after voting to make the economy worse.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    It was the old people, who fought wars and rebuilt the country and lobbied for workers’ rights

    It was the old people’s parents who did most of that stuff. The old people just got a booming post-War economy, free healthcare, pop music and lots of easy sex.

    colp
    Full Member

    I’m mostly worried about Monday evening when 17 million people who struggle to separate fact from fiction panic because thousands of White Walkers are coming to Engerland.

    deepreddave
    Free Member

    @dannyh – whilst the status quo is usually more comfortable than change, the opposite side of your argument seems to be based on an assumption that everything would be better if we’d remained in. Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear ‘better future’ to the majority who voted Leave? Surely it ought to have been simple and not required spin/exaggerations/lies.

    I’m not saying in or out is best as I don’t have the ability to predict the future with certainty but asking the Leave voters to evidence their plan for the better is not a convincing argument that remaining would have been better (leaving always involved uncertainty over negotiations involving others that couldn’t possibly be predicted).

    richinbish
    Free Member

    Richinbish. What a huge steaming pile of emotive, little Britain, spiteful bullshit.
    How much of a piss take is it for the old to tell others to roll up ther sleaves and work harder whilst relaxing in their mortgage free houses with a healthy pension pot, just after voting to make the economy worse.

    @mdavids do you even know how a pension pot is funded ? It depends how well the economy is doing , this is becoming more comical by the minute

    philxx1975
    Free Member

    yup the baby boomers **** us…

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    The future is now entirely in your hands.

    The great illusion that has fooled so many.

    We have just unleashed a series of events that we are unprepared for and unlikely to be able to contol

    #fakecontrol
    #outofcontrol

    aracer
    Free Member

    Yes. Do you know what happens to that pension pot when you retire and take your pension, and how much is the amount of pension you get every month affected by the state of the economy?

    aracer
    Free Member

    The future is now entirely in your hands.

    It’s a shame about the handcuffs and blindfold

    dannyh
    Free Member

    Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear ‘better future’ to the majority who voted Leave?

    They did. It was in the sodding great booklet that went through everyone’s front door. The same booklet that 100% of the people I know who voted ‘leave’ didn’t bother to read. The same booklet that everyone I know who voted ‘remain’ did read.

    Willful ignorance followed by an economically disastrous decision followed by repeating over and over again “don’t call us names, we’re all in it together now, let’s all pull in the same direction”. Can you now appreciate why I am absolutely **** livid?

    And yes, I did use “we’re all in it together” deliberately, because the last time that one got trotted out all anyone could do was have a pop at Dave and Gideon.

    Now an ignorant (willful or genuinely) majority have dropped us down a big, dark, shit-filled hole and are getting narky when the barely smaller minority get pissy with them.

    What the **** are we going to do to offset the economic disaster? Because here’s the thing, if I was going to tip the apple cart over in the vain hope of starting over again, I’d have a very clear plan of what needs to happen from day one.

    All the knuckle-dragging halfwit in the street can go on about is what ‘we’ have been freed from (and they have mostly got that wrong too). So what have ‘we’ been freed for? What positive steps are in place or being put in place quickly to deliver this vaguely defined utopia?

    I don’t know how many more times I can post on here, because trying to reason with idiots is the definition of insanity. There won’t be a different outcome however many times you try.

    WHAT IS THE PLAN?

    divenwob
    Free Member

    Danny would you have been able quantify the next 2 years? Are you sure you could guarantee it?No.

    dannyh
    Free Member

    Danny would you have been able quantify the next 2 years? Are you sure you could guarantee it?No.

    See you in two years mate. One or both of us might be living under a bridge by then, of course.

    What’s the plan?

    mikey74
    Free Member

    Danny would you have been able quantify the next 2 years? Are you sure you could guarantee it?No.

    You don’t need to be able to guarantee it, you just need to provide a roadmap, based on expert advice and pre-discussions on what would happen in the event of a leave vote and how the country can be positioned to best deal with what’s coming.

    rkk01
    Free Member

    He blamed nobody, threatened nothing and sucked it up to say it was time now to regroup, rebuild and get back to business. He was also honest enough to understand the mood in much of the country and step down gracefully.

    Haha – that’s so fwking naive.

    He has just politely offered the key of No. 10 to BoJo and said “you’re the one who’s crapped in the duvet – you clean it up”
    🙄

    rkk01
    Free Member

    Genuine question, why then did the Remain campaign not manage to highlight this clear ‘better future’ to the majority who voted Leave?

    As has been stated many times (other thread), it’s much harder to sell the benefits of “carry on as you are”. We all know exactly how we were doing last week – whether shit, comfortable, optimistic or no hope for the future.

    Loads of financial info on how the economy / country was doing (i.e. Remain case) was available and has had a name – “The News”, any many, many folks don’t give two hoots about the news, the economy, politics etc – presumably that’s why so many were googling the EU after the referendum 😯

    And also, the same people (voters and VL politicians / campaigners) didn’t give two hoots about reasonably informed people saying that an out vote would unleash a storm of shit. IT REALLY WASNT PROJECT FEAR. It was people desperately trying to get the uniformed / impossible to be informed / wilfully ignorant that they were racing full speed for a cliff edge

    Whether it was economists, politicians, “experts”, or just knowledgeable STW forum users wanting to express their concerns – very few (nobody?) appeared to be interested in listening to factual information or reasonably constructed forecasts.

    Are Remain supporters bitter – too right. For me, because the info was there, the implications far reaching and the electorate (many that I heard) not interested in taking an informed decision ON THE ISSUES AT HAND.

    Are Remain supporters poor losers – well unfortunately, I suspect we all will be…
    … and our children…
    … and our grandchildren

    dannyh
    Free Member

    You don’t need to be able to guarantee it, you just need to provide a roadmap, based on expert advice and pre-discussions on what would happen in the event of a leave vote and how the country can be positioned to best deal with what’s coming.

    In actual fact you don’t even have to quantify it, all you have to show is that one side would be better than the other. So, with a pound that has already lost 8% of it value when I last looked, hundreds of billions wiped off the FTSE and it looking likely that the AAA credit rating rating wil get downgraded, which looks the better option right now?

    rkk01
    Free Member

    I posted this on FB earlier – to try and put that £350M lie into context…

    No £350M per week for NHS (no surprise)
    No kerbs on immigration…
    No truth in the Leave campaign???
    £120 billion off London stock market – equivalent to running:
    HM Armed Forces for FOUR YEARS…!
    Or the NHS for ONE FULL YEAR

    And globally £1.24 trillion wiped off stock markets – ONE DAY’s global losses equivalent to 10 years’ UK NHS Budget
    The £350M p/w & Immigration Lies

    Just so those that are saying suck it up and get on with it can have half a fwking clue what they’re talking about 👿

    deepreddave
    Free Member

    @dannyh – cheers. My query was more why an apparently compelling message couldn’t be landed persuasively.

    We’ll have to see what the future holds but I’m inclined to think there’s mutual benefit to everyone involved limiting the negative impacts so with some upside it won’t be the economic disaster you fear. If the EU continues its expansion and fails then it might prove to be akin to the potentially disastrous euro decision which never was.

    somafunk
    Full Member

    This is why i’m not bending over and taking the vote leave result without voicing my opinions, an incredibly ignorant selection of voters from Romford and i genuinally do feel for the young girl (Fay) at the start of the video who voted remain.

    Link to BBC clip here, it may leave you shaking your head in disgust

    phiiiiil
    Full Member

    This is probably the most far fetched, overly optimistic tenuous line of approach ever, but given how the challenge to the result based on requiring a higher majority isn’t really going to work, could you base a challenge on accusations of fraud instead?

    It’s one thing to say you’re going to do one thing and then just be rubbish at it or not get round to it, but to claim something then immediately say that’s not what you meant after people took you for your word seems sufficiently dishonest to be worth investigating…

    dannyh
    Free Member

    This is why i’m not bending over and taking the vote leave result without voicing my opinions, an incredibly ignorant selection of voters from Romford and i genuinally do feel for the young girl (Fay) at the start of the video who voted remain.

    Link to BBC clip here, it may leave you shaking your head in disgust

    I don’t think I can feel disgust for those muppets. I genuinely feel sorry for them.

    As for the single mum, I could hazard a guess why she might also get quite a lot of stick apart from her political views, but I’ll leave the rest of you to fill in the gaps on that one.

    whimbrel
    Free Member

    I still feel that the anger towards the English/Welsh people who voted out is mis-placed.
    The Eton/Oxford well educated, not too old, father of children, leader of Remain stated that if he hadn’t got the concessions he negotiated earlier in the year, that he would not have ruled out backing a leave vote.
    So if you didn’t think the concessions were up to much, and the well educated not too old leader of Remain thought they were the only difference between in and out, then a less well educated, maybe even old, person could be forgiven for thinking that the decision was marginal and a leave vote was not an unreasonable thing to do, particularly as these balance tipping concessions weren’t guaranteed to be ratified.

    BoardinBob
    Full Member

    That video is sad and terrifying. The old classic immigrant stance. On one hand they’re lazy, uneducated and unskilled. Yet on the other hand they’re stealing all the jobs 🙄

    Stanhope sums it up perfectly as always

    [video]https://youtu.be/Z_iBOEDb7PM[/video]

    corroded
    Free Member

    Don’t worry, I’m sure that when more companies pull out of the north and Wales and more unemployed people come cap in hand for even more of Londoners’ taxes, London will be only to happy to help. #NeverForget

    rkk01
    Free Member

    And I have to say – those who are carping on that Scotland should accept the result…

    … yes they should – there result was IN

    I would have been upset if Scotland had left the Union in 2014(?), but it’s their choice to make – but TBH, Scotland’s politicians have shown themselves as head and shoulders above England & Wales’.

    Say what you like about Sturgeon – she’s canny, an addroit politician and appears to be working her butt off to look after the Country she represents

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