Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 44 total)
  • My first ever work problem. Help.
  • oldgit
    Free Member

    Early this year I had a performance review, came out of the blue and the result was devastating. My branch has always had very poor stock take results going back decades. But the gist of this meeting was that I was the main factor. Although I’ve only worked here four years?
    However not a single fact was presented to me, just hearsay and it seems.
    My conscious is clear. But I know our administration and following of the system has been poor. This is mainly due to lack of staff, last year there were four of us instead of the required eight.
    I should say I’m not involved in admin as I’m pure sales.
    I had another review and it was the same. No facts. But this one ended with, if the stocktake figures are bad this time you know what’ll happen. And there it ended. I’ve taken that as meaning dismissal.
    I’m on top of my game, but I can clearly see the system isn’t working. Therefore the figures will be out and so will I.
    I’ve asked about a move, but I love my job and and have superb relationships with staff and customers.
    I tried to talk tonight, but was shown the door when I brought up the subject.
    I do wonder if its an issue of age. I’ve been in the trade since school, and my manager is a 23 year old grad with no experience.
    Who do I turn to as I feel I’m being pushed?

    mitsumonkey
    Free Member

    What do you do?

    SaxonRider
    Full Member

    Employment solicitor. Just the fact that you had one might make them more willing to talk sense instead of scapegoating.

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    oldgit
    Free Member

    I work in electrical wholesale, serving the trade and industry. Specifically I deal with the slightly more tricky/technical stuff.

    Murray
    Full Member

    I’m struggling to see how someone in sales can be responsible for stock levels.

    Do you get on with your boss’s boss? If so, go talk to him.

    If you choose to fight it be prepared for hell. Write everything down. Ask for copies of everything. Drown your boss in paper. He’ll still do what he wants but you may get some cash when the constructive dismissal case comes round.<edit>In my experience it never comes to court, HR and the lawyers realise they are likely to lose and settle</edit>

    Alternatively, get another job with someone who’s not a ****.

    kev7654
    Free Member

    Join a union. Gmb and unite are both general unions which will accept and advise members from any workplace. You can join online and pay subs by DD so employer would only ever know you were a member if you called upon the union to represent – eg at a dismissal appeal hearing.in the mean time you’ll be able to call them in confidence for free advice and support.

    Join now though – if you wait till a formal process starts and then join the union is unlikely to support you on that issue as it pre existed membership.

    oldgit
    Free Member

    I do get on with he’s boss, he employed me. I’ve told him I’d like a transfer.
    I know he has spoken to at least one of he’s other managers as they called me for an off the record chat. Word is im not allowed to leave the company.
    Forty years of experience and customer relations might seem valuable to a competitor…..I like to think

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    I know SFA about the sunject but if it were me:

    You need to fight this unless you’re in a position to retire – imagine the next job interview and explaining why you left this one

    Engage a union or lawyer & take proper advice.

    Take in a trusted colleague witness/scribe to all future meetings and ask for or send round minutes to those in attendance afterwards.

    (when the time comes) Ask for proof that there wasn’t the same problem before you started (if you’re clever you’ll already have proof that it predated you)

    Check your conract – does it in any way put you as responsible for the book-keeping or oversight of the system

    SaxonRider
    Full Member

    Join a union. Gmb and unite are both general unions which will accept and advise members from any workplace.

    This. I didn’t know about UNITE and GMB when I wrote what I did above.

    poisonspider
    Free Member

    Is stock accuracy in your remit?

    If so how?

    Is it mentioned specifically in your role description or contract?

    brooess
    Free Member

    At 23 I knew nothing about anything. I would suggest this ‘manager’ does not have the experience and maturity to know how to handle the situation, or he has some kind of personal/political agenda.

    It seems to be that he’s handling it very badly. There’s all kinds of holes in his approach. Get yourself some good advisors and take the advice ^^ and it should be easy to take him apart…

    Good luck. I hate people who play with people’s livelihoods because of their own needs, it’s not trivial…

    project
    Free Member

    They want you out, ther kid in charge want say anything because his career is in front of him and he cant rock the boat, poor stock take results, does that mean thefts or just loses due to damage.

    B.A.Nana
    Free Member

    I work in retail and as I understand it, they have to have actual proof that it is you that is the reason for stock loss. They’ve already stated this is their reason, they have no proof it’s anything to do with you, they’ll lose when you take them to court for unfair dismissal. As said, keep records of everything, make notes now of what was said in the meeting, what’s been said in the past (if you can recall exact times / dates / jist of conversation etc), keep notes and as much evidence from now on, all conversations, meetings, everything relevant incl times and dates. There are apps you can put on your mobile which record conversations, catch them out with that if you can. It seems crazy to me that they are going along this tack, as they don’t have a leg to stand on without damning evidence.

    captainsasquatch
    Free Member

    brooess – Member

    At 23 I knew nothing about anything. I would suggest this ‘manager’ does not have the experience and maturity to know how to handle the situation, or he has some kind of personal/political agenda.

    Brady was 23 when she started work as managing director of Birmingham City F.C

    Not all 23 yr olds are the same.

    At 26 I was moved to a new branch to help the manager learn the corporate way that our organisation saw fit to have. The manager didn’t like it that this 26 yr old upstart was telling him what to do. My company’s response was that they couln’t be seen to support a salesman over a manager, even if he was a competition winning salesman.
    And that was that.

    Good luck.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    THis if you do sales why and how did it become your responsibility?

    What training have they put in place to enable you top do this job?

    At the meeting regarding performance what steps did they expect you to take – they need to be really specific not just reduce loss – they need to say how and IMPORTANTLY- how they will support and train you to do this
    They can moan at you but they need to support and train you to do the things they ask

    As others note you have three broad choices

    1) Informal off the record chat with someone important and higher than them – assuming you can trust them or even another chat with the line manager

    2 ) union – probably to late to join now as it will be classed an ongoing issue

    3) get all legal on them – this will make them defensive and nervous though

    Overall Approach:
    write everything DOWN

    Send emails to them – its my understanding from the meeting that you want X and I need to x could you clarify etc –
    What does or you know what will happen mean as I dont actually know what it means as it is rather vague.
    BUILD EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CASE – they are being unfair /unclear etc

    BCC all emails to an offsite server – personal mail of your choice

    Mail in profile is you want more advice – union rep

    IMHO what you really want is to be able to stay there and get on with the job you are good at so remember what you want and a direct fight is rarely the best option.

    oldgit
    Free Member

    Thanks. Lots of notes now made.
    Admin has always been left to temps, part timers, work experience or simply just left!
    I can find plenty of example errors. A classic example. A new generic stock line was added. Two different suppliers were set up, we bought from both. The stock was mixed, but sales were only removed from one supplier.
    I find about three a day.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    This is where union membership really helps ime

    poisonspider
    Free Member

    The first thing an unfair dismissal trial would consider is the contract, what are you employed as.

    Then what is the role description for that position.

    Then what training has been given to support you in that role.

    They will also consider the process followed by the employer leading up to the dismissal, is it in line with their disciplinary/performance management policy. They are obliged to have a written policy and make sure the staff are fully informed about it. If they don’t it’s a major black mark.

    The specifics you mentioned doesn’t sound like it would be classed as a gross misconduct issue therefore escalation through the process needs to be demonstrated, with each stage fully documented. Improvement targets needed to be clear and achievable (unachievable or contradictory targets could be seen as ‘unfair’).

    They need to produce evidence that you have been given the opportunity and support to achieve the improvement targets and that your failure is wilful or a clear lack of ability.

    One possible option is to lodge a grievance against the manager for unfair treatment (basically bollocking and threatening you over an issue that is not your responsibility). Again they are obliged to have formal procedures to cover this. If it went to tribunal, demonstrating you have formally complained could go in your favour. If they are following poor practice with the dismissal process chances are they won’t follow the grievance properly either, which again goes in your favour.

    Good luck.

    twixhunter
    Free Member

    Do you have an internal work website for staff which contains details of HR processes such as annual leave, performance management etc? If so I’d check what details there are about situations like this and ways around it e.g. restoring efficiency as they call it in my org.

    Hope it works out.

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    Lots of good advice there, but find a new job.

    If you work under an arsehole, then one thing is for sure. You will be showered with…

    Cut the Gordian knot, don’t waste time unravelling it.

    atlaz
    Free Member

    I’d be inclined to ask what exactly you’re allowed to do to fix the situation. They can’t make you partly responsible for the problem without giving you the leeway to fix it. Get either the permission to take it on or the refusal IN WRITING. It could be they’re expecting you, as a senior staff member, to do more about the problem than acknowledge it exists.

    Also, get the thing about the manager’s age out of your head. It’ll only lead to disaster if you persist in the belief that this is the problem (even if it actually is, you can’t prove it) because sooner or later it’ll come out of your mouth either at the office, with a solicitor or in court and it won’t help you.

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    Unless justified, bad reviews/appraisals are generally either down to a boss who’s being pressured or the company is up sh*t creek, and either way rather than address their problems they are just looking for people to blame.

    Or they want to cut staff but don’t want to go through the cost of redundancy so give you some grief so you may jump before you think you may be pushed.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    I still don’t understand the stocktaking issue but it seems to be a process of some sort at fault. I’d start my asking what process you are supposed to be following. Ask for it to be written down. Then follow that process exactly, highlighting any inconsistencies as you come across them. Then get the process nailed down.

    This doesn’t have to be done in an acrimonious manner. If there’s nothing already available, volunteer to document it, circulate it and get everyone to buy into it. That way, you’re offering to help the organisation out, being seen to be positive and resolving this potential for conflict again.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    There’s some good advice above.

    I take it you work for a private company. There will be share holders and board members somewhere, maybe listed in on-line company registers. While you’re still a part of the company find out as much about them as you can; names, adresses or other business interests where you might be able to contact them.

    Start writing about all the failings of the systems you’ve mentioned and all the mismanagement you observe. Note things you’d change for the better but your management have refused. You come over as articulate and positive on here so I’m sure you’d do it well – straight observations and positive critical analysis. What you write will be useful in defending your position through conventional channels already cited by others.

    If that fails appeal directly to the people running the business demonstrating how you have contributed to profitability and how your management are more interested in building their own personal empires than acting in the best interests of the company.

    It’s an ageist world we live in.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Proven by the OPs reference to his managers age.

    hugo
    Free Member

    Looks like they are looking for a scapegoat. When this happens the perceived weakest person is normally chosen.

    Avoid being that person.

    Ask for the full process written down including everyone’s individual responsibilities. Find out what the problem is with your role in said full process, define what it is, and ask for support to fix it.

    Dig out/request all your previous 121s, appraisals, meeting notes, etc, and see how that ties in with the information they’re giving you.

    Put everything in writing.

    Drop casually in conversation that you’re doing the above all of a sudden because you’ve taken on advice from a friend who’s a no-win-no-fee employment lawyer.

    Join a union.

    In short stand your ground firmly but politely and you’ll be surprised about how quickly they might look elsewhere.

    But…..In the meantime start looking for a new job NOW. The above will slow down/stop things, but it’s a big warning sign. Have a look what’s out there – you don’t have to take it – but you will kick yourself if you don’t start doing this today.

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    maybe I’m missing something, but no-one seems to have suggested fixing the stock control system/problem?

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Err….. I think there’s at least five posts above this one suggesting exactly that

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Note things you’d change for the better but your management have refused.

    I did

    franksinatra
    Full Member

    If you are responsible for stock, then perhaps you relationship with staff is not as good as you think if you cannot turn the issue around in 4 years.

    If you are not responsible for stock, but it is obvious to you that you can fix it, then ask for the responsibility and sort it out.

    If neither of these statements are true, then take your experience and move to a competitor.

    good luck

    poisonspider
    Free Member

    Drop casually in conversation that you’re doing the above all of a sudden because you’ve taken on advice from a friend who’s a no-win-no-fee employment lawyer.

    For what it’s worth I’d advise against that. I’ve been the one conducting poor performance appraisals before (properly I hasten to add) and this kind of idle threat is less than helpful. Given what has been said about the manager’s style, I suspect it would make him more determined to get rid of you and call your bluff.

    maybe I’m missing something, but no-one seems to have suggested fixing the stock control system/problem?

    A very valid point. If it is your job to do it (or even influence it if it isn’t) get it sorted.

    If it is your job then their postion would appear justified. If it isn’t and they dismiss, any evidence that you tried to meet their requirements, despite it not being in your role description, would go in your favour.

    hels
    Free Member

    Your line manager sounds like a plonker.

    As above, keep your cool and stick to the facts.

    Don’t be drawn into opinions and hearsay.

    Somebody had a pop at me in an exit interview years ago, it was all “he said that she said” from somebody who I had replaced on a project so was gunning for me. I kept my mouth shut and asked for their evidence. It was immediately dropped. I think they were hoping I would confess but as I hadn’t done what I was accused of…

    So what I am saying is don’t get put on the defensive.

    P.S and look for the hidden agenda – it may not be what you think.

    legend
    Free Member

    oldgit – Member
    I do get on with he’s boss, he employed me. I’ve told him I’d like a transfer.

    Maybe I missed it, but did you tell him about the problem rather than just saying you wanted to move? Be honest with them, you owe nothing

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    Hmm…a basic principle to keep in mind with almost all job conflicts is that you have to be prepared to walk, fighting to hold on to your job still (potentially) leaves you with a shit boss that you hate which is no basis for a productive career, even if you “win” the immediate conflict. That said, best to leave on your terms at a time that suits rather than get pushed out the door. So I’d advise job-hunting as well as defending your case. Of course you may get lucky and get rid of the problem one way or another, but I woudn’t bank on it.

    Gary_M
    Free Member

    Word is im not allowed to leave the company.

    What do you mean ‘not allowed to leave’?

    brassneck
    Full Member

    How can you have a performance review out of the blue?

    There have to be objectives and measures agreed by both parties with a timescale or it’s a sham. Which is what this clearly is – time for HR or union.

    I think we’re allowed one wild unfounded bit of speculation per thread, so here’s mine – the new manager wants rid for whatever reason, and has read somewhere that 3 poor performance reviews are grounds for dismissal. I’d wager he hasn’t yet read the bit of what constitutes a proper performance review. Constructive dismissal possibly?

    poisonspider
    Free Member

    Constructive dismissal possibly?

    Just to be clear, he’d have to leave to make a constructive dismissal claim.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    Going by the sounds of the company, probably some badly written, borderline illegal non-compete clause in the contracts saying you can’t work for the competition.

    FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    I’d be complaining to your manager’s manager about a stock taking issue that your manager seems unable to resolve and is trying to blame you for.

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