joolsburger – Member

Why? If you believe in and live your life based on a set of supernatural beliefs without a shred of evidence and those beliefs infact inform some questionable(at best)moral decisions I’d say you were, in fact, a nutter.

Ah. So all religious people are nutters. Except the hypocrites obviously.

Writing off 28 million people as nutters because they live in Saudi Arabia is just phenomenal.

Ah. So all religious people are nutters. Except the hypocrites obviously.

Writing off 28 million people as nutters because they live in Saudi Arabia is just phenomenal.

I would consider the 5 to 15 percent of muslims that support terrorism to be nutters.

We have plenty of nutters as well, but if Jehovah’s Witnesses were blowing themselves up I somehow doubt you’d be as outraged by the nutter comment. Personally, I do consider highly religious misogynists to be nutters so I would never visit a state like Saudi Arabia.

The question asked to get those numbers was: “Some people think that suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilian targets are justified in order to defend Islam from its enemies. Other people believe that, no matter what the reason, this kind of violence is never justified. Do you personally feel that this kind of violence is often justified to defend Islam, sometimes justified, rarely justified, or never justified?”

So if you say violence against civilian targets to defend islam can be acceptable, you’re a nutter. Substitute “Israel”, ask yourself the same question, then have a think.

I would consider the 5 to 15 percent of muslims that support terrorism to be nutters.

80% of Jewish Israelis support terrorism against Arabs. So more nutters in Israel than in Saudi Arabia according to your logic.

That number is way higher in places like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, also where did you find that number and what was your point?

So if you say violence against civilian targets to defend islam can be acceptable, you’re a nutter. Substitute “Israel”, ask yourself the same question, then have a think.

The question implies intentionally targeting civilians. However, it’s one of the reasons why I’m not as quick to damn Israel as you are. As the other sides opinions are just as horrific, the only difference being their ability to kill each other – morally they are equals. Live by the sword etc ad nauseum.

Do you think the Muslim descendants of Al Andalus should be allowed the right of return to Spain? I’m on the fence about this but I’d be interested to here your opinion on it.

So, nutter or hypocrite?

I’d consider radicals of any religion as nutters, or anyone for that matter who thinks explicitly targeting civilians is acceptable.

The argument is whether Israel does that and how many Israelis support targeting civilians for the lolz.

No idea. Since they scrapped minimum height requirement ?

Well played 😆

Tom they either target them or they are really bad shots 🙄

Can we have a little balance here.

FWIW they do not actively target children but they do accept that large numbers of them will die when they target hamas and they bomb UN sites, hospitals and schools or safe havens they have advised them to go to as they deliver a collective punishment

None of this is legal or moral.

If the M’lims are not fighting other religions then they fighting amongst other Islamic sects.

It’s a good job that you don’t get any of that nonsense with other religions. Can you imagine Protestants fighting Catholics? The very notion!

Tom_W1987 – Member

The argument is whether Israel does that

It’s really not, Israel attacks civilian targets, that’s undeniable. And that’s what the question you’re using to support your nutter claim asked.

So it’s hypocrite then. A shame. I was kind of hoping you might actually subject yourself to your own judgement, it’s an interesting experience to come up short of your own standards.

Prove to me that the IDF expressly attacks civilian targets Northwind.

FWIW they do not actively target children but they do accept that large numbers of them will die when they target hamas and they bomb UN sites, hospitals and schools or safe havens they have advised them to go to as they deliver a collective punishment

I do agree with your sentiment here, however, it’s being reported that over the past week Israelis have hardened their opinions due to the response of the worlds media. I wonder how much of their willingness to “get the job done” and attack targets near schools and hospitals is because of that. I would also still be interested to see reliable evidence of the ratio of civilian casualties to combatants before I can support any claim that the Israeli’s are collectively punishing Gazans by disproportionately killing civilians.

I’m uneasy about jumping to conclusions before seeing evidence.

I see Ernie et al have not taken the Al Andalus bait yet.

This opening ceremony sound like a bad Miley Cyrus video

It looked like a bad Miley Cirus video! 😯

Israelis have hardened their opinions due to the response of the worlds media. I wonder how much of their willingness to “get the job done” and attack targets near schools and hospitals is because of that.

Sounds to me like the world’s media should stop criticizing Israel for killing civilians as it might be making things worse, ie, Israel is having to kill even more civilians as a result.

So hush everyone and let the Israelis carry on killing innocent civilians without too much criticism.

BTW it’s not “targets near schools and hospitals” it’s direct strikes on schools and hospitals.

Writing off 28 million people as nutters because they live in Saudi Arabia is just phenomenal.

I really wasn’t. My point (albeit put badly) was that in a fundementalist state such as Saudi you could easily get to a figure higher than 5% for fundamental muslims therefore it would be very easy to see how you could get a 5% figure for global islamic fundamentalism as an average across all islamic states. I’d suggest you’d get a similar number for christians, jews, etc etc. Fundamentalist to me means people who unquestioningly believe their magic books and also believe those who interpret the will of god on their behalf like clerics etc.

People seem surprised at the use of the word nutter, if I sincerely believed in Russell’s teapot you’d quite rightly think me a nutter – I see little difference between that and religion.

It looked like a bad Miley Cirus video!

Is there any other kind of Miley Cirus video?

People seem surprised at the use of the word nutter, if I sincerely beleived in Russell’s teapot you’d quite rightly think me a nutter – I see little difference between that and religion.

Atheists make up less than 3% of the worlds population. Being a “nutter” is obviously normal for a human.

Atheists make up less than 3% of the worlds population. Being a “nutter” is obviously normal for a human.

Yup. Although there are degrees to nutterism and wahabbis are close to the top of that list. Along with extremely orthodox Jews, the church of Christian Scientists, certain Buddhist sects etc etc

if I sincerely beleived in Russell’s teapot you’d quite rightly think me a nutter

Either that or everyone else around you are all teapotists and have said they’ll kill you if you don’t believe in teapots, so you just go along with it.

Though that raises an interesting question; what if in that community, no-one really believes, but they’re all afraid of the perceived group wisdom to say different?

Sounds to me like the world’s media should stop criticizing Israel for killing civilians as it might be making things worse, ie, Israel is having to kill even more civilians as a result.

So hush everyone and let the Israelis carry on killing innocent civilians without too much criticism.

BTW it’s not “targets near schools and hospitals” it’s direct strikes on schools and hospitals.

You can mediate without hardening one side further. Also, I’d add, why are Palestinians letting Hamas fire from within schools? Although I don’t agree with targeting schools with heavy weaponry.

there are degrees to nutterism

I see, so it’s not as straightforward as “you have a religion you must be a nutter”.

Fascinating.

Atheists make up less than 3% of the worlds population.

For context, what percentage of the world’s population is “first world” and broadly educated, and what percentage are still stoning people who they think are posessed by demons?

You are deliberately dodging reasoned discussion now Ernie.

I’m also dying to here your opinion on the right of return of Muslims to Spain.

You can mediate without hardening one side further.

I’m sorry what does that mean….”gentle” criticism of Israel is allowed ? Otherwise they will just get upset and kill more innocent civilians ?

You can mediate without hardening one side further.

I’m sorry what does that mean….”gentle” criticism of Israel is allowed ? Otherwise they will just get upset and kill more innocent civilians ?

Language used, how mediation is carried out, partition blame to both sides equally.

Today the BBC was going on about how accurate we are with our weaponry in wars and then asked why the Israelis weren’t. I laughed **** hard at that one, it’s crap like that, the single sided hypocritical narrative that is hardening the Israelis.

I’ve been searching for the most pro Islam figures on the number of radicals so that no-one cries foul.
Dalia Mogahed was in 2008 executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. A multi-year study of Muslim opinion worldwide under her showed that seven percent of Muslims are radical. This is widely disputed as being far too low but still two points up on what I said.

You are deliberately dodging reasoned discussion now Ernie.

You’re posting bollocks suggesting that it’s the world’s media which is to blame for Israel killing innocent civilians, quote :

it’s being reported that over the past week Israelis have hardened their opinions due to the response of the worlds media. I wonder how much of their willingness to “get the job done” and attack targets near schools and hospitals is because of that.

And you talk about “reasoned discussion” ffs you’re having a laugh.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/aug/24/israel-boycotts-right-traumatised

It’s happened before. Why don’t you try and think of a better way the west can try to engage Israel, if we really actually want to stop the bloodshed.

But I’m not entirely convinced that you do want to stop the bloodshed, I think you’d rather let Israel become a pariah state and act like a pariah state for the sake of your own personal ideologies.

Sam Harris has an interesting take on the Israel issue, certainly thought provoking..
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

Tom_W1987 – Member

Prove to me that the IDF expressly attacks civilian targets Northwind.

Oh ffs. They’ve blown up houses, a power plant, hospitals. All civilian targets. They’ve bombed houses with people on the roofs. Oh no, that’s fine because they “knock” first- except that’s stone cold proof that they’re intentionally attacking civilian targets (otherwise, why “knock”?)

You can try to play the “Oh it’s OK to attack civilian targets because Hamas” like you did in the last thread, but you can’t sensibly claim they don’t intentionally attack civilian targets any more than you can declare the earth is flat.

Oh ffs. They’ve blown up houses, a power plant, hospitals. All civilian targets. They’ve bombed houses with people on the roofs. Oh no, that’s fine because they “knock” first- except that’s stone cold proof that they’re intentionally attacking civilian targets (otherwise, why “knock”?)

You can try to play the “Oh it’s OK to attack civilian targets because Hamas” like you did in the last thread, but you can’t sensibly claim they don’t intentionally attack civilian targets any more than you can declare the earth is flat.

We have done all of that, has the bombing of civilian buildings with militants inside suddenly become unacceptable overnight or is it only Nato that is allowed to do so? I digress though, I don’t believe that the Israeli military is right to use heavy weapons against targets located within civilian buildings.

You still haven’t provided any evidence that the Israelis are knowingly attacking buildings that aren’t harboring armed militants. You can keep banging the same unevidenced tosh out time and time again Northwind, but until you come up with the evidence I don’t believe for a second that Israeli policy is the same as that of Hamas.

but until you come up with the evidence

It is very clear that no matter how many reports there are from Gaza none of it will be enough for you.

You will always find excuses for Israel’s appalling and brutal behaviour, as your breathtakingly idiotic suggestion that the “world’s media” is responsible for the high civilian casualties in Gaza proves.

It is very clear that no matter how many reports there are from Gaza none of it will be enough for you.

You will always find excuses for Israel’s appalling and brutal behaviour, as your breathtakingly idiotic suggestion that the “world’s media” is responsible for the high civilian casualties in Gaza proves.

Did I say that? I’ve said that they’ve helped escalate the conflict further.

I would be happy to see evidence that showed civilian casualties differed significantly from previous Nato conflicts, if you can prove that then you have a point. I will get back to my point that the medias failure to recognize that we are as bad as the Israelis, is contributing to the crisis more than it is helping.

Keep resorting to using words like “idiotic” Ernie, as you clearly can’t actually make a reasoned counter to my argument.

it’s an interesting experience to come up short of your own standards

Steady on NW are you really claiming he has standards?

i though he was just trolling as I find it hard to believe anyone believes the stuff he says on here [ not just this thread if I am being honest]

why are Palestinians letting Hamas fire from within schools?

ignoring for a moment that fact you cannot prove this* [ by anyones standards let alone the ones you set for us to use against the IDF] lets just have a think here

* either hamas does this or they dont try and stop them.

What do you want the unarmed civilians under attack from the IDF and cowering for their lives to do when the armed terrorists [ as you call them] launch an attack somewhere near them….walk over and ask them to stop whilst hoping that
1. The israels dont shoot them
2. hamas dont shoot them

You cannot be being serious here. I am not sure why folk engage with you as I just cannot believe you think this like this as it is unreasonable and illogical and you dont come across as either of those 😕

I’m not entirely convinced that you do want to stop the bloodshed, I think you’d rather let Israel become a pariah state and act like a pariah state for the sake of your own personal ideologies.

Ok that its I am out this man is a loon and he is beyond the realms of reason if he does believe this shit
Personally I think he is writing any old tosh to get a reaction get attention and garner responses

Forgive the name calling as you ride your high horse under your bridge 🙄

I’ll reveal my hand here. A mate of mine mentioned his riding mate from holiday who was a ex-IDF soldier and fun etc. If I had met him I’d have punched the ****. Hurt the ****. I’ve said this before on here, what would Saladin say? Where are the Muslim Scholars today? The great Islamic empires of old, it seems to be converging generally more and more 🙁

ignoring for a moment that fact you cannot prove this* [ by anyones standards let alone the onnes you set for us to use against the IDF lets just have a think here
* either hamas does this or they dont try and stop them.

What do you want the unarmed civilians under attack from the IDF and cowering for their lives to do when the armed terrorists [ as you call them] launch an attack somewhere near them….walk over and ask them to stop whilst hoping that
1. The israels dont shoot them
2. hamas dont shoot them

You cannot be being serious here. I am not sure why folk engage with you as I just cannot believe you think this like this as it is unreasonable and illogical and you dont come across as either of those

Then demand that the PA takes control of Gaza, or at the very least Fatah.

Ok that its I am out this man is a loon and he is beyond the realms of reason if he does believe this shit
Personally I think he ie writing any old tosh to get a reaction get attention and garner responses

Ernie’s language when describing himself as anti-Israeli and his use of the comparison to South Africa makes me believe that. What do you think Israel will do if they are boycotted like South Africa was, do you really, really honestly believe things will get better? Unless we are willing to commit troops as peacekeepers to a ceasefire, the best way is conciliation. Not a ratcheting up of the rhetoric and escalating this further. How do you think the Israelis will act once they have no international reputation left to lose?

resorting to using words like “idiotic”

It is the perfect word to describe your suggestion that the world’s media might be responsible for the high civilian causalities in Gaza.

When Israel bombs Palestinians and kills innocent civilians they, and they alone, are responsible for that.

You obviously want to shift the blame elsewhere and will clutch desperately at straws, as you clearly have when you blame the world’s media for reporting the appalling consequences of Israel’s relentless attack on an essentially unarmed people claiming it’s making things worse.

It is clear that you would rather the world was completely silent over the suffering of the Palestinians.

You are now cynically misinterpreting me Ernie, reporting the conflict is fine. It’s the discourse around it that is not helpful.

I’m not entirely convinced that you do want to stop the bloodshed, I think you’d rather let Israel become a pariah state and act like a pariah state for the sake of your own personal ideologies.

Ernie’s language when describing himself as anti-Israeli and his use of the comparison to South Africa makes me believe that.

Yeah you can imagine how upset I was when the Apartheid regime collapsed and the black majority won equal rights. I enjoyed seeing black South Africans suffer as I obviously also do Palestinians 🙄

And you talk about “reasoned discussion” ???

Anyway, you’re getting to much attention for your idiotic comments imo.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2006/jan/26/highereducation.uk1

Academic boycotts against Israel were self-defeating and would only damage its existing relationship with the Palestinians, a conference was told this week.

Sari Nusseibeh, the president of Al-Quds University, the only Arab university in Jerusalem, said the free flow of science and information was a more powerful weapon against war.

“I stand committed to academic cooperation and against boycotts,” said Dr Nusseibeh in a letter read out to participants at a two-day conference held at Bar-Ilan University entitled Academic Freedom and the Politics of Boycotts.

You are only helping speed the demise of the constructive peace movements both within Israel and Palestine Ernie. Unless that is, you think you are better than a Palestinian who is ranked among the top 100 intellectuals of the world.

Tom_W1987 – Member

We have done all of that

That was all you had to say- you admit the IDF intentionally attacks civilian targets. You denounce muslims who say attacking civilian targets can be justified. Then you justify it yourself, over and over. I’m not even arguing with you, I just need to hold up a mirror to you.

You say, “You still haven’t provided any evidence that the Israelis are knowingly attacking buildings that aren’t harboring armed militants.”- which was a messy change of question, but despite that I actually have, several times, as have the IDF. They’re proud of their “knocks” to terrorise people and destroy empty homes, and they know perfectly well that if by some chance there were armed militants in there, they’re long gone by the time they actually hit it.

Lastly, your absurd strawman “I don’t believe for a second that Israeli policy is the same as that of Hamas.”. I suppose it’s not surprising, if your own opinion is based on dishonesty why bother to be honest about anyone else’s?

Sometimes I think it must be nice to be a hypocrite. No guilt, no inconvenient honesty, no need for personal consistency. Maybe not even enough self awareness to know what you are? Must be liberating. But then I think, glad that’s not me.