el Che – I’ve spent 30 years years in South Africa and have travelled throughout the region and know many Zimbabweans. In my experience, many poorly educated Africans still revere Mugabe as an anti-colonial freedom fighter. It is true that his stock has waned in many urban areas, but he remains popular with the rural masses. His eventual passing will be mourned by many Africans, particulary by his Shona tribe. Many of his critics, myself included, find this uncomfortable and irrational. See this article published http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-mugabe-won-over-a-nation–again-7574466.html The comments it below make interesting reading.

…….he didn’t like the man then. He also drove Smith and found him a delightful chap.

Seems strange. How could a chauffeur come to such a conclusion ?

Was because Mugabe was black ?

See this article published http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/how-mugabe-won-over-a-nation–again-7574466.html

So he’s quite popular in Zimbabwe then ?

Not quite the same as “revered” throughout Africa.

I thought that was bollox.

A small point of irrelevant information.

Mugabe said backwards is e ba gum.

el Che – wait till he dies. Then you’ll see what I mean.

I certainly won’t be upset if he passes but I can’t celebrate the death of another human.

I don’t consider any entity that behaves in such a vile, murderous fashion to be human, so I will certainly be celebrating his demise, even if it’s nowhere near as painful as he deserves. I actually hope he dies screaming in intolerable agony; and if I had the opportunity I’d take a dump on his grave.
I have similar sentiments towards the likes of Pol Pot, too.
Anyone offended by my uncompromising attitude towards the likes of those two can bite me.

Countzero – dehumanisation is one of the steps towards genocide. These are bad, immoral, evil humans who should be dragged in front of the International Criminal Court to stand trial.

according to the BBC he is in Singapore with prostate cancer.

Yeah, because rejoicing in someone having prostate cancer is a worthy thing to do. Not. Say what you like about his “politics” which are utterly despicable, but to rejoice in someone suffering makes you as bad as him, IMO

If he and his henchmen had murdered my family, I doubt I would have no empathy!

And the response from yorkshire……
Ebagum

I’ve got no sympathy for Mugabe, he’s been responsible for the torture and death of thousands of people in Zimbabwe, and has managed to bring the country to its knees (while the UN, and African Union stood back and did nothing)
Its a shame he’ll end his days in a peacefull hospital room, as he deserves to go the same way Gaddafi did.

wait till he dies. Then you’ll see what I mean.

So it was just a hunch then ? Not actually backed up with any creditable evidence.

Fair enough, I’ll wait and see. Specially as it doesn’t appear I’ll have to wait very long.

Before there is much wailing and gnashing of the teeth throughout Africa at the news of Mugabe’s death.

“Before there is much wailing and gnashing of the teeth throughout Africa at the news of Mugabe’s death. “

Erm… you what?

Care to try a second time at making a little sense? 🙂

No, I’m happy with my first attempt. Thanks anyway 🙂

Countzero – dehumanisation is one of the steps towards genocide. These are bad, immoral, evil humans who should be dragged in front of the International Criminal Court to stand trial.

Massive +1

Africa seems to have been over shadowed by genocides fostered on one ethnic group only to have them turn around and do the same.

Although knowing a lot of Zimbabweans myself through the private education system I don’t believe you on the wide spread support part.

el Che – I welcome healthy skepticism and don’t expect you or anyone else to believe any argument on face value. However, you’re just being cynical. Actually, on some other threads your’re an arrogant brow-beating intellectual bully spoiling for a fight rather than a productive dialogue.

However, I would like to hear why I should value your opinion on this issue. I know that you are well informed about Latin America and I respect your views, but I would like to read how you became an expert on Africa too. Where is your evidence? I’m very open minded and regularly question my own beliefs and have no entrenched convictions. I stand ready to be corrected – this gentleman is for turning.

bwaarp – yes, even evil dictators have human rights. I just wish we could make the ICC into an effective deterrent. The press have spent 2 decades demonising Mugabe by exposing his crimes against his people. Therefor, it may be difficult for us to see the whole picture or at least an alternative perpective. Also, there may be an aspect of Group Think on our part – it’s not the received wisdom that Mugabe is popular. Let’s not forget that Saddam Hussein was popular throughout the middle east while being despised by the West. Just look where that Group Think took us.

When Mugabe’s time comes, we need to be ready to help Zimbabweans move towards democracy and prosperity.

@redfordrider. I’m with you on this – even dictators have human rights. Additionally as someone with many friends from all over Africa – they certainly report that Mugabe has a following with the less empowered and less educated on that continent.

His following may be limited to the lowly educated ‘freedom fighters’ he represented, and they are an ageing band that we’ll have to wait to die out too. Although what with the life expectancy in Zim, that may not be too long. Surprising the way a teacher managed to lead his ‘pupils’ through oppression using extreme violence themselves and have still to put down their arms in their heads due to the failed promises that motivated them through dark times and the inequalities and poverty that have faced them.

In modern times it appears many uneducated youths were brainwashed into following the parties violent methods and they’ll be difficult to assimilate back into society if things change round. I didn’t see that much of it in the mid 80’s when I lived there, just one rally at the local football stadium that was ‘unnerving’ I guess and we stayed well clear that evening. I’m not sure I ever saw ‘joyous’ enthusiasm for him on peoples faces, even the event on his property when he was re-elected in for his second term seemed to be rather somber. Jets flying over, large arty pieces, troops of women dancing/marching in units with their ‘traditional’ dress (with his face in the middle) and then he came out on his balcony to wave to his people, I was standing too close at this point I guess, didn’t see many people acknowledge or respond at this point though.

It’s a shame there was no one open minded and competent enough to put in after the war, and little has been done to rein in his destruction of his own society. With failed social/family systems in place, fathers leaving/abandoning their families for SA for work, the church in fighting against condom usage, no wonder 25% of his population has HIV. The Brits seemed to be there training up their troops in exchange for access to the tobacco and to stop domino theory, but their troops were generally crap, and their best they sent to the Congo to fight an illegal war there. Two weeks after we left, heli-borne commandos abseiled in and blew up the water works, newspaper, PO, and not one soldier on the street (and they used to swagger round slinging AK’s and LMG’s with their ‘bubblegum girls’ hanging on to them) had the bottle to fire back. SA had also in more recent times been blaming Zim for letting ‘terrorists’ through the one-side checked border controls to mine roads and kill SA troops.

What about the 3,000 white farmers killed on their land in South Africa since 1991? Everyone dislikes nasty Bob, but no one cares about the genocide happening south of his borders. I don’t see anyone rushing to condemn Mandela or his successors.

It’s not genocide. It’s absolutely true that white farmers have been killed in large numbers since Apartheid and that home invasions, hideous assaults and murders take place without many being solved or prevented by the cops. But it’s also true that black (and every other group within South Africa) people – urban and rural – have been killed, robbed, assaulted and murdered in huge numbers in the same period. When the police aren’t actually complicit or engaged in that crime, they’re often inept and always underresourced to deal with the astromically high crime rate in the context of massive poverty and social upheaval.

It’s true that the attacks on farmers are disproportionately violent for mere robberies etc. But it’s also true that most other crimes are disproportionately violent – people are shot for phones, traffic accidents turn into massive beatings, pickpockets are killed by mobs.

It’s equally true that the ANC never successfully made the transition from revolutionary liberation front to democratic political party. Mandela is a great man (the greatest of the 20th century?) but his greatest achievement – a relatively bloodless transition – inevitably involved huge compromises with unpleasant fellow-travellers.

The leaders of the ANC under Mandela and since Mandela’s retirement have proven themselves (for the most part) venal, moneygrubbing, corrupt scumbags. (New) COPE’s emergence and Zuma et al’s pathetic boer-baiting in order to distract everyone from the abysmal economic and social development record of the ANC government is testament to that.

Man, I know lots of Iraqi’s as well through work and academics. Saddam was not a popular bunny within Iraq but I don’t know much more about Zimbabwe so I won’t comment further.

The old White Colonials are still around and putting their slant on things. Whilst better rule is needed, it is human rule, not race rule.

We met colonials down there that infuriated us. We think we have racist issues with the Met here, but what we saw on occasions went beyond the pail. Not all colonials were problematic admittedly. I met one here about 10 years ago, waiting to die I guess. She had no friends from what I could see, and told me tales of working in the political campaign offices for the White colonials as if I was on her side.

“Saddam Hussein was popular throughout the middle east while being despised by the West.”

Says who? The only two Middle Eastern states in which there was the vaguest notion of free association or debate were Iran and Israel, and Hussein was despised in both. Later, he was despised in the quasi-state of Kurdistan and unpopular in the Palestinian (Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait and Arafat’s inability to miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity having caused many Pallies to have been expelled from the Gulf). In the rest, there was no way to judge popularity of any political figure.

(You’re also ignoring the long period in which Saddam and Teh West were bezzers).

The only two Middle Eastern states in which there was the vaguest notion of free association or debate were Iran and Israel,

By that comment, were/are also the only two worth listening to?

were/are also the only two worth listening to?

I didn’t say (or imply) anything about whether the states were worth listening to. In fact, I didn’t say anything about the opinions of states. I doubt you’d find much on which those two states agreed apart from that Saddam was a bastard. I didn’t say that popularity was anything to do with quality.

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make, in short.

Konabunny – I concede that you make some excellent points. Perhaps genocide is too strong a term. You are also correct about the brutality of crime in South Africa that affects all races. However, it is clear that some ANC leaders have encouraged their followers to attack whites. Jacob Zuma is notorious for singing his personal anthem ‘Bring me my machine gun’ to the delight of ANC supporters. Julius Malema has been found guilty of hate speech for singing “dubul’ ibhunu” (shoot the boer). Surely this is incitement to murder others because of their race just as Mugabe has done?

redfordrider

I know that you are well informed about Latin America and I respect your views, but I would like to read how you became an expert on Africa too.

I’m not an expert on Africa nor am I an expert on Latin America, in fact, I’m not an expert on any topic. I was merely interested in your claim that Mugabe was “revered throughout Africa”. It wasn’t something which I was aware of and suspected that it was probably bollox. So I quite understandably challenged you to provide some evidence to back up your rather remarkable claim. Something which you have up until now failed to do.

…..your’re an arrogant brow-beating intellectual bully spoiling for a fight rather than a productive dialogue.

Now I don’t know you redfordrider, but that comment suggests that being challenged isn’t an experience which you are very familiar with. I get the distinct impression that you are much more used to spouting out any old bollox as you please, without anyone having the audacity to challenge you.

Well sadly for you such is the democratic nature of the internet that there is a real possibility you might be challenged – so bear that in mind in the future.

Yes I could have ignored your quite extraordinary claim that Mugabe is revered throughout Africa, but I chose not to – call it ‘intellectual bullying’ if you wish. And the reason I chose not to ignore it is that, apart from believing that it is almost certainly untrue, it casts African people in a somewhat unfavourable light, which I very much suspect was possibly the purpose of this rather extraordinary allegation.

And btw redfordrider, you do realise that every time you start a post with “el Che” it betrays a very defense position, don’t you ? Now I don’t mind what you call me, you can call me **** for all I care, but I thought I should point that it doesn’t have the probable desired effect. Far from annoying me it mildly amuses me that you lack the confidence to make your point without first resorting to a defensive position. HTH fella 🙂

…..your’re an arrogant brow-beating intellectual bully spoiling for a fight rather than a productive dialogue.

intellectual is a bit harsh I think

ernie_lynch. I apologise for referring to you as ‘el Che’ – now that I now that it offends I will desist. I was trying to be humourous – a sort of in-joke. Sorry. I enjoy reading your contributions and you’ve definately made me rethink many issues. You are clearly very intelligent and articulate. However, you are not wise. Your guerilla tactics alienate others – you are devisive, condescending, disingenuous and sarcastic. You would add more value if you turned your talents to persuasion rather than being abrasive.

Ok, so you are not an expert on Africa. It appears that you’ve never been there nor have you spoken to the rural poor. You’ve based you opinion on ‘received wisdom’ which you appear unwilling to challenge. You’ve offered no evidence of your own. All you have provided is vitriol.

We find it difficult and counterintuitive to believe that evil tyrrants can be popular. Perhaps this is because we equate popularity with legitimacy – a tenant of democracy. Mugabe and other dictators can’t rule on their own. They need support. Mugabe is the tip of the iceberg – there are layers of corrupt cronies propping him up, mostly from his own Shona tribe. Such dictators can often control the national media and provide the dominant narrative – many poorer and less educated people don’t have accesss to contradictory evidence or views. I know what its like to live under such a regime. Educated by the apartheid regime I was a racist until I went to university and discovered brilliant black students and academics – I knew nothing of the anti-apartheid movement overseas. It turned my whole world view upside down. Therefore it is easier for me understand how people’s opinions, norms and beliefs can be distorted by an evil regime; how many Zimbabweans can be conned by the truth told badly.

It’s important that we understand Mugabe’s position in his society. We shouldn’t be naive and think that his death will instantly make things better. We’ll need to influence his successors, rather than alienating them by dancing on Mugabe’s grave.

intellectual is a bit harsh I think

I thought so too ! How dare that man calls me an intellectual !!!

.

Mugabe and other dictators can’t rule on their own. They need support.

And also apparently intimidation, violence, and vote-rigging.

But hey, what do I know…….according to you he’s revered throughout Africa. And I believe you are sole arbitrator on such matters, ’cause you’ve been there.

Luckily this fail-proof logic means that all my pronouncements concerning UK politics is equally correct.
Which is rather nice 🙂

ernie_lynch You can’t help yourself can you. Have a trawl through this forum http://www.topix.com/world/zimbabwe/2012/04/robert-mugabe-dead . Plenty of people hate Mugabe, but many others support him. You may be interested in many of the anti-colonial comments – stoked up by the likes of Mugabe and Malema.

redfordrider

You said

He has millions of supporters and is revered through out Africa.

Ernie challenged you on this and despite a lot of bluster you have produced nothing to back this up. From where I sit I think that your claim is hyperbole. Yes he has some support but nothing like you claim.

Thanks for the link redfordrider. I now see from the thread with 14 comments in your link, that “plenty of people hate Mugabe, but many others support him”. That helps me to understand things a lot more.

ernie_lynch You can’t help yourself can you.

That’s funny ’cause I was thinking the same thing about you. I was happy to make the point that I seriously doubted your claim that Mugabe is revered throughout Africa, and leave it at that. But you keep challenging my right to challenge you. You’re not used to being challenged are you ? I was suppose to shut up wasn’t I ?

I hope he dies a long and unimaginably painful death screaming in pain and crying and covered in his own shit and piss, followed by eternity burning in hell. 🙂

You don’t like him do you jumpupanddown ?

TJ – can I call you TJ? Where is your evidence that he is not popular with many rural poor in Africa. I offered my personal experience having lived in Southern Africa were I studied politics and carried out research in Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique, Botswana and Tanzania. I visit family in Africa for three weeks every year. I provided a link to an article in the Indepent and to a Zimbabwean Chat forum. You can chose to disregard my professional and personal opinion as anecdotal. If you chose not to accept this as evidence, that’s fine. Let’s see yours.

ernie_lynch Did you read any of the other threads? Do you want to discuss how we can help Zimbabwe or are you purposefully trolling?

ernie_lynch Did you read any of the other threads?

No I didn’t – just the one you linked to.

Are they interesting ?

Redfordrider – I know he is popular with some. However you were called on the hyperbole of your original statement thats all.

popular with many rural poor in Africa

– is not the same as

He has millions of supporters and is revered through out Africa.

@Jumpupandown, not sure what posting old colonial (racists) imagery in here is good for?

Don’t suppose you’ve been down in London with the Met behaving much the same as in that pic? A situation mirrored across the globe, in a variety of nations, First and Third world.

ernie_lynch: Was because Mugabe was black ?

Dunno. Possibly. Why do you ask?