Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 48 total)
  • MSP in responding amazingly quick shock….
  • matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    So I emailed our MSP Bruce Crawford this afternoon over an issue of my wife not being able to teach in Scotland as she qualified in England.
    5 minutes later, he called and asked lots of questions and promised letters to some people for answers this week….
    😛
    Stil does not solve the issue of institutionalised racism against English in Scotland.
    👿

    geoffj
    Full Member

    Stil does not solve the issue of institutionalised racism against English in Scotland.

    😯

    Maths GCSE at grade c?

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    Interesting when the BMA is struggling to stop people with medical qualifications from other European countries and a poor command of english practicing medicine in the UK.

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    franksinatra
    Full Member

    Does the same policy work in reverse ie: are teachers who qualified in Scotland allowed to teach in England?

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    does not solve the issue of institutionalised racism against English in Scotland

    There’s nothing can bear a grudge like a Scot. They still grumble about Bannockburn, and that was 700 years ago.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Just wait till they get independence, then Alex Salmon will be putting all the foreigners in trucks and driving them to the border for deportation….

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    If she was Scottish and got her qualification in England the position would be no different. That’s not racism.

    MSP
    Full Member

    Interesting when the BMA is struggling to stop people with medical qualifications from other European countries and a poor command of english practicing medicine in the UK.

    Thats just the excuse they come up with whenever it goes wrong.

    ps. the thread isn’t about me.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Does the same policy work in reverse ie: are teachers who qualified in Scotland allowed to teach in England?

    Nope, Scots trained people can work anywhere in UK.
    It is people trained in England and Wales more than 10 years ago and with less than 5 years experience that do not hold ‘Qualified Teacher Status’ in Scotland. It is suggested they do not understand the curriculum, yet teachers here have had a couple of days in-service training to update them to the new Curriculum for Excellence – so why not mrs_oab…?

    If she was Scottish and got her qualification in England the position would be no different. That’s not racism.

    Indeed, I was attempting being provocative.
    .
    Good news is that the MSP said he thinks that it is not Government policy, so has already written to some other MSP in charge of such things to investigate a solution with Teaching Council, and explain why they hold this policy and if it is appropriate.
    .
    All good…

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Being English isn’t a race. Just saying 🙂

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Being English isn’t a race. Just saying

    Indeed, but daft as it may sound the law might view it otherwise. (I think?)

    This popped up a month or so ago when abusing folk from Belgium for being from Belgium was defined as racist.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    “A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.”

    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/

    That’s the one.

    BurnBob
    Free Member

    Matt, my wife was in exactly the same position. She was newly qualified in England with her PGCE. Great we thought so we moved back to Scotland. Soon realised that the only way she could do it was to do another year probation(voluntary). We made a few noises to people at the time but to no avail. She had to leave teaching which is their loss as she was a natural. I realise this probably doesnt help you!

    poly
    Free Member

    Being English isn’t a race. Just saying

    but the law does regard discrimination against the English / Scottish / Irish / Welsh as “racism” (as per the former Race Relations Act, and now the Equality Act).

    However, it is not GTCS policy that applicants who have studied and worked in England and Wales are excluded per se. There may be some extra hoops to jump through to prove qualification etc: http://www.gtcs.org.uk/registration/qualified-outside-of-scotland/qualified-outside-of-scotland.aspx

    I would consider anyone who can’t find that on google ineligible to teach, or not having sufficient motivation to find the answers!

    Stoner
    Free Member

    Being English isn’t a race.

    Indeed. To be born English is to have already won. 😀

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Indeed. To be born English is to have already won.

    Touché 😉

    fourbanger
    Free Member

    “A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins who collectively want to get offended about something.”

    Fixed that for you.

    winston_dog
    Free Member

    I lived and worked in Scotland for 6 years.

    In my experience there is a minority of Scots who have quite a strong anti-English bias. The worst seem to be “middle class” professional types, they really seemed to have a lot of resentment.

    To pretend there is no problem with the English up there is nonsense.

    Joe
    Full Member

    Its a bit like the fact that Scottish students don’t pay any fees at university…nor do European students…but then English students are the only ones that do if attending scottish HE institutions.

    Its utterly **** outrageous.

    peterfile
    Free Member

    I lived and worked in Scotland for 6 years.

    In my experience there is a minority of Scots who have quite a strong anti-English bias. The worst seem to be “middle class” professional types, they really seemed to have a lot of resentment.

    To pretend there is no problem with the English up there is nonsense.

    I lived and worked in England for 8 years.

    In my experience there is a minority of English who have quite a strong anti-Scottish bias. The worst seem to be “middle class” professional types, they really seemed to have a lot of resentment.

    To pretend there is no problem with the Scottish down there is nonsense.

    (btw, most scots who have any “resentment” towards Englanders, tend to actually dislike the media portrail of southern yobs, which is what they identify as being “English”). I spent most of my time in the north of England, and now realise that nobody likes southerners, so we’re united in that respect 😉

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    “Scottish people in England – prepared to do anything for their country short of actually living there.”

    My Dad. From the south of England.

    My personal view is that people tend to get the reaction they expect. If you move somewhere looking for prejudice you’ll find it (or maybe be more conscious of it if/when it does occur?).

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    Back on topic.

    There are certain reasons why a registration may not occur automatically.

    For example Secondary school PGDE are just that Post Grad. So in theory (apart from DT and PE) All secondary school teachers in Scotland hold a degree in their subject. The English BEd. may go into “degree” level topics but it is not a degree.

    “For registration in Secondary Education, an applicant must have studied at least one academic subject, appropriate to the curriculum likely to be encountered in a Scottish secondary school, to a minimum of 80 Scottish Credit Qualifications Framework (SCQF) points at higher education level. At least 40 must be at SCQF Level 8 or above.”

    As per post above if you can’t (be bothered to) google before ranting then perhaps it’s all to complicated for you.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    I’m half Scottish and half English and I’ve seen more racism against Scots in England than I’ve seen against the English in Scotland. Not that I’ve seen a significant amount of either.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Its a bit like the fact that Scottish students don’t pay any fees at university…nor do European students…but then English students are the only ones that do if attending scottish HE institutions.

    Why should we subsidise your education if your own government is not prepared to do it?

    winston_dog
    Free Member

    Just to clarify on my Scottish experiences.

    I am from the NE of England and had very little, if any “anti-English” sentiment directed to me personally. I have actually been told on frequent occasions that I “don’t count” as I am from the NE. However, I witnessed and overheard frequent “anti-English” sentiment.

    I currently live in the SE and have also lived in the SW and I have never really come across any anti Northern or anti Scottish sentiment with the people I have encountered.

    The majority where embarrassed and apologised for some of attitudes.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Why should we subsidise your education if your own government is not prepared to do it?

    Seems fair enough. The scots have to pay to study in England.

    Just wait till they get independence, then Alex Salmon will be putting all the foreigners in trucks and driving them to the border for deportation….

    We’d see a LOT more going in the opposite direction!

    I currently live in the SE and have also lived in the SW and I have never really come across any anti Northern or anti Scottish sentiment with the people I have encountered.

    Similar here. I live in the SW, and I’d never heard any anti northern or scottish or welsh talk in my life until I joined up. Some of the attitudes I found there from all sides were an eye opener!

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Summary: most people everywhere are lovely, some are idiots 🙂

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Hmm, not sure I should have tried the racism wind up… We have never run in to racism yet properly up here, but this policy does seem to the exclusion of only English and Welsh…

    poly
    I would consider anyone who can’t find that on google ineligible to teach, or not having sufficient motivation to find the answers!

    onehundredthidiot
    As per post above if you can’t (be bothered to) google before ranting then perhaps it’s all to complicated for you.

    What idiotic things to say.
    Mrs OAB is primary teacher, and holds a relevant BA(Hons)degree and PGCE in Primary Years Education, 4.75 years teaching in primary at all ages, 5 years setting up and leading a community nursery, 2 years working with severely autistic boy as classroom assistant, 2 years as an outdoor instructor with primary children and 11 years of bringing up her own children. Despite what the GTCS site says, she is not being granted full Qualified Teacher Status in Scotland.
    Clearly you have spent the last three years (as we have) communicating with the GTCS on this subject, and read the many hundreds of pages of policy that they have, or spoken the many minions and the head of GTCS on the phone and email who repeats that:

    * my wife’s PGCE that was taken in England 10 years ago does not qualify her to teach in Scotland as she cannot understand the Scottish Curriculum, and that she should re-take her PGCE and Probationary Year.

    * That because my wife applied two weeks after the changed the rules in 2009, and because of her significant experience that only falls short of the minimum 5 years by one half term and that her 5 years setting up and running a community nursery was relevant but not an LEA run place, an exception can be made that she should only re-take her probationary year. This means she is GTCS registered, but only as ITS not full QTS.

    * This means she cannot apply for permanent posts, unless a probationary year with the extra support and training needed for a new teacher. However, as she trained in England, she would not qualify for the extra funding a school gets to train and mentor her for that year. So no school would take her on, as they get all the hassle and work and no extra cash.

    * She has to do 270 days teaching by June 2014, all on ad-hoc supply basis as she cannot apply for permanent posts, and keep all her time sheets as evidence. Clearly supply comes with no support or training in Scottish curriculum, so of little value is it to a ‘new teacher’ that my wife is now categorised as. The weeks my wife has spent volunteering to teach in our local school have also been dis-counted as they are not paid.

    * That even though a new curriculum has been introduced here, and most teachers have had a couple of days in-service training to meet that new curriculum, my wife must do a whole year of teaching, not that in-service, to allow her to teach the same curriculum.

    GTCS will not consider any other option, or work with practical solutions that we have suggested.

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Summary: most people everywhere are lovely, some are idiots

    Bang on Sir, well said.

    Personal experience of 3 years up here. Not experienced anything yet, despite being told by several people. Your going to Dundee, jeez they really hate us there.

    Which is odd, as there are far better reasons to not move to Dundee than potential racism. 😛

    br
    Free Member

    I’m British but live in Scotland. 🙂

    I keep telling my ‘Scottish’ friends that there is no such thing as English and Scottish as we all have the same passport. And come the independence vote it’s not ‘Scots’ who’ll be voting, but people who happen to live/reside in Scotland (on a particular day).

    Why should we subsidise your education if your own government is not prepared to do it?

    Eh? Not sure you’ve realised but it all comes from the same ‘pot’ – the UK Exchequer.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    I keep telling my ‘Scottish’ friends that there is no such thing as English and Scottish as we all have the same passport. And come the independence vote it’s not ‘Scots’ who’ll be voting, but people who happen to live/reside in Scotland (on a particular day)


    One of my biggest gripes. Over the past few months I’ve been invited to fill in various forms to declare my ethnicity (at least I think thats the term used).
    White Scottish, White European, White non-English etc.
    What’s the purpose of these types of labels? Honestly, I can’t really see the point.

    *born in Bolton, lived in Wales for 3 years and Scotland for 16 (90% of my working life).

    br
    Free Member

    Matt

    Its got nothing to do with your wife and/or her training/experience or lack of.

    She’s come up against the public sector jobsworth system.

    joao3v16
    Free Member

    “Over the past few months I’ve been invited to fill in various forms to declare my ethnicity (at least I think thats the term used). White Scottish, White European, White non-English etc.
    What’s the purpose of these types of labels?”

    It’s a subtle way to maintain the mentality amongst the population that they’re part of a particular ethnic group, rather than just being ‘a person’, thereby highlighting ‘differences’ and entrenching/encouraging a racist mentality …

    EDIT : why are my

    [/quote] not working

    onehundredthidiot
    Full Member

    Re the idiotic thing to say, perhaps, but that would then apply to your racism statement.

    I’ve seen lot sof info about registration from “outside” the scottish system all of it seemed pretty clear. People have different standards apply to be considered for one of those standards and you will be measured against that standard.

    Acrually that all stands but re you point about the probationary year. Bizzarely that is not compulsory, you can apply through the non-standard route (that’s what I did as I went straight to the independent sector). You can even be employed and do the probationary stint even after years of experience (my sister taught in Spain got a job here and went through a modified probationary period).

    Stoner
    Free Member

    EDIT : why are my

    not working[/quote]

    matt’s broked then thread with his bullet points 🙂

    rattrap
    Free Member

    So, to get this right:

    She’s allowed to teach a class, as a supply or temporary teacher, possibly for months on end if necessary, while they found a replacement

    but she wouldn’t be allowed to teach the same class as a permanently employed teacher, or apply for the job that she’s essentially doing, because of the rules?

    thats madness!

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    ^ yes.

    The only reason is her training and experience were in England.
    If the same course and content OR same class and years had been in Scotland OR she had taught one term of older (Primary 5/6/7) kids in England, she could have full Teaching Status.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Curses to bullet points….

    rattrap
    Free Member

    Matt – I’d be gobsmacked if there wasn’t something about that in EC single market regulations/professional qualification recognition rules.

    Might be worth having a read up on Directive 89/48/EEC

    I’m surprised the unions aren’t all over something like that either

    mefty
    Free Member

    Matt – I’d be gobsmacked if there wasn’t something about that in EC single market regulations/professional qualification recognition rules.

    I don’t believe these apply intra state – only inter state – so no application in England vs Scotland situations, but there is where it is any other country vs UK, hence why EU students can study free in Scotland but English can’t.

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