Just back from a ride and was annoyed to find lots of the winterfold tracks blocked by large amounts of bulldozed and cut trees. I know its private land but how much damage are/do mountain bikers really doing to the guys land. A couple of trails providing hours of fun for people and pretty much no impact to him. He must be real a miserable see you next tuesday! Anyone know if there is a real reason for what has been done or is he just a dick?

Having seen the litter – bright fluorescent sings, tape, inevitable gel wrappers – on his land after a recent “race” that probably shouldn’t have even been there recently, I am starting to have some sympathy with Big Jim, plus some of the gap jumps. We are our own worst enemies at times as we will probable see here…..

I know its private land

Yet you tresspass and then moan?

It’s his land, it’s private, he’s really pissed off at the moment with scale of digging on his land, which to be fair is causing considerable damage compared to just people riding natural-ish trails. He says insurers insist no bikes on the land as it’s a working forest and they won’t cover his liability.

It’s been a long standing conflict and he can do what he likes really except block off public footpaths and bridleways, but things have come to a head and he’s clearly had enough. Actively blocking/destroying trails, staff warning people off the land, Strava is being monitored, web sites are being instructed to remove information on trails.

Meanwhile, there are tonnes of other places to ride and loads more fun.

Go and ride somewhere where it’s allowed.

scale of digging on his land, which to be fair is causing considerable damage compared to just people riding natural-ish trails

Although that’s nothing compared to what ever forestry equipment is being used there. Perhaps he is like me and mildly miffed what he used to be able to ride now has big ol’ gap jumps to clear.

I will clear them one day.

I probably won’t.

agree that some of the big digging is a little un-called for. I wish people would just leave it how it was – nice single tracks and let it be, rather than pushing the limits. All of the forestry work is done miles away from trails (that I know of) so I cant see any danger of people getting hit/hurt by machinery. It would be great to have a peace treaty and agree to not dig anymore and let us ride existing stuff but I imagine that’s pretty much impossible to manage. Its been come and go there for years now. Time to focus on other parts around Peaslake I guess. Shame as it was fun!

As above, he’s just pissed off with the scale of digging which is understandable, it’s his land and we have no right to be building trails through it albeit you seem to think you do. Also after he felled a trail some dick felled some trees across his drive which doesn’t strike me as too clever. Think they’re getting to the point where they have had enough.

Originally it was a network of cheeky trails ridden by a few with minimal building and a lot of discretion and common sense. Now it is ridden by the weekend masses (often with what appears to be a sense of entitlement rather than respect), it is constantly being developed and extended and it is far from unobtrusive. I think we have been very lucky to get this far and enjoy it for so long but the usage now is taking the p. Shame, but there is plenty of less controversial riding elsewhere.

I know its private land

So jog on then, it’s up to him what he does with it and if he wants to cut down his trees (as long as there is no tree preservation order) to stop trespassers riding their bikes then he’s obviously entitled to do that, I’m amazed people moan about that!?
If I came and dug your lawn up you would be right pissed off, I see little diffence between that and trespassing or digging illegal trails.
I actually rode those trails many years ago but didn’t know they were on private land and stopped when it became apparent.

There needs to be some respect. Sadly some are tearing down the “private keep out” signs that were put up recently, and attempting to restore trails. There are attempts to work with land owners in the area and it doesn’t help the relationship to annoy them.

I’ll admit I’ve enjoyed the trails, but when the party is over it’s time to move on. Plenty more about.

Also after he felled a trail some dick felled some trees across his drive

Some people are so self entitled it’s beyond belief. 😥

This is why we can’t have nice things, or better access rights…

There’s a right way and a wrong way to go about these things, and making a landowner have to take on the liability / financial impact for some shitty trails is not the right way.

“No impact on him”….apart from the possibility of a multi-million pound law suit should someone have an accident.

It’ll be nice once golf becomes the in thing for twunts again…

Stupid w@nkers on mountain bikes contributing towards screwing it up for everybody else who happens to not be a stupid w@nker on a mountain bike.

Agree with the above. Mountainbikers as a “community” have only themselves to blame for pushing things too far with a sense of entitlement

I met one of the land owners a few weeks back (not while on my bike) and we had a really good chat about the issues mentioned above. He was a really nice guy and along with his father who I also met, are happy to try and make thinks work so that everybody is happy. They realise that most of us are extremely grateful for riding on their land, but he is also aware of a few people who think it is their right to do what they want. Apparently, it’s not just individuals but has something to do with a bike mag digging for photo shots too.

bubs – Member
Originally it was a network of cheeky trails ridden by a few with minimal building and a lot of discretion and common sense. Now it is ridden by the weekend masses (often with what appears to be a sense of entitlement rather than respect),

This basically.

I stopped riding there (Surrey Hills) at weekends in about 2004. Became unbearable after that. Luckily I don’t really work normal office hours so can often ride there during the week – which is heaven.

Completely understand how the land owners feel… and local residents.

Maybe he should open some car parks with pay machines or donation boxes and all the money goes to paying his insurance costs for liability cover ?

Or some other way of raising money from the mtb community.

Don’t now if it would be possible or would raise enough money – but it would save him the stress of trying to fight against the tide of self-entitled riders that visit his land.

chris36860 – Member 
Apparently, it’s not just individuals but has something to do with a bike mag digging for photo shots too.

Yeah. One particular trail has a few names, one of which is the name of said mag. Trail next to it that got flattened a while back didn’t help when they posted videos of them riding the jumps. Though it was also in a stupid obvious location.

Those bits though are a different land owner and the guy who ordered them flattened at the time, did say he was happy to work with bike folk and appreciated mountain biking in the area. Just they were taking the piss too much. That stuff is also on the Hurtwood so is open access (which doesn’t mean a right to dig though).

Where are all the big features and piss taking digging that everyone thinks is causing the problem? Milestone came and went and was obviously never gonna work with him. Then One for All arrived with a small drop and Evian came back to life as it was. The cause of his most recent wrath is not the digging as much as the attitude of the people that ride there. I’ve seen him get abuse from riders when he’s asked why people are riding on his land. He is an angry man, best not to poke him with a stick when he pulls up for a chat.

He basically doesn’t want people riding bikes on his land. I’ve had the pleasure of bumping into him on a trail – he was perfectly polite, but made it clear I wasn’t meant to be there – the guys who followed down were the fully self entitled w*nker type who subsequently gave him a load of verbal. As usual, helping further compound his opinion.

He trashed the trail a week later.

Evian was rebuilt, the newer one to the right of it had an obvious gap built, the one on the other side of the valley was blocked off, Area 51, Secret Santa had more obvious jumps built at the start.

The jump line right next to Northern Monkey (not sure if he owns that, but regardless, the people at the bottom of the hill hate bikers wrecking and trashing the woods with the original NM jumps, so what do riders do? carve a massive. obvious jump line in there too.

There are endless bloody trails with jumps in them, i’m not sure there is a need to have one on every single hillside.

We really don’t help ourselves. Try telling your average SH trailbuilder that too. It doesn’t end well. If I was him, with the money he has got, i’d fence the whole bloody lot off – and i’m a mountain biker.

We don’t actually deserve to ride there.

first of all OP slagging him on a public forum doesn’t help the cause. He is well within his rights. There is a ton of riding around the area.

It’s a combination of several factors as DK and Gotama pointed out. It also doesn’t help that riding groups are getting bigger with no appreciation for the code of conduct of the FotH. Magazines broadcasting come ride the SH’s etc etc. The list is long.

In addition Strava has a lot to answer for as well.

10p if by milestone you mean the big jump line that ran near evian, that land to the left of Evian belongs to someone else. MS was asking to be knocked down.. big jump line in open view on private land.

Hear hear Hobs

Agree with the above. Mountainbikers as a “community” have only themselves to blame for pushing things too far with a sense of entitlement

This doesn’t make sense.

Are you saying that MTBers are responsible for the actions of other MTBers?

I am an MTBer, I am not to blame for this.

This is interesting reading. You need to have an open dialogue with the landowner.
If the land is privately owned what right do the riders have to be there?
I used to help out with NWMBA and I have witnessed some of the discussion around access to Snowdon.
If the landowner is open to MTB’s why not set up an access group.
Be open about what you want but be prepared to compromise.
Communication here is key, that way the landowner and yourselves can avoid conflict.
You may be able to reach an agreement to continue to ride there , or not. But if someone steps up and becomes a point of contact a relationship can be built and something could be salvaged.
Reading what has been said on here, this is the only way forward.
You can’t go building trails on private land and annoying the landowner.

Maybe he should open some car parks with pay machines or donation boxes and all the money goes to paying his insurance costs for liability cover ?

Or some other way of raising money from the mtb community.

Don’t now if it would be possible or would raise enough money – but it would save him the stress of trying to fight against the tide of self-entitled riders that visit his land.

Why should he? a lot of MTB’ers are tight fisted dickheads with a sense of self entitlement. People would just take the piss like they are doing already. There is enough info on the web about what is legal, toleratated and frowned upon in the area regarding trails yet it’s constantly ignored by selfish tosspots.

It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. When has having a battle with a land owner ever worked?

Bit late for it but working together with the land owner is common since. Putting together a proposal to have a sustainable trail network and a way to fund some insurance.

The requires the local mountain bike to work as a community.

I was probably a bit harsh in the original post. Its more the disappointment of trails being “open” then closed, then open then closed, trees over them, trees not over them. I have never dug any trails there and certainly do not condone damaging the trees etc (however one could argue that all the trails have caused some damage). Its just a lot of fun to ride! Mag’s digging big hits etc is just silly.

I was more after a reason (not that he needs one) as to why he has suddenly blocked them off again as it seemed he was “happier” to allow people to ride there now. I would pay a few quid each time to ride there – no issues with that. The insurance issue is a funny thing – would someone sue for getting hurt on a jump? Surely if you ride there you know the risks…..compensation culture is getting stupid now.

I would be more than happy to be part of a MTB community to discuss and agree on a way forward with him. The problem is trying to control the renegades who insist on building new stuff. If we could agree on x,y,z trails and no more and put signs up outlining that it might work. My feeling is that we have probably lost that area for now, which is a shame.

I would pay a few quid each time to ride there – no issues with that.

Recycle back to Swinley before the waymarked trails and paying for parking, there used to be a permit scheme – £20 for a year or about a pound or two for a day ticket iirc.

The arguments that went on – why should i pay to ride, I’ve been riding here for years, the wardens will have to catch me first …..

As a group it is always a few nobheads that tarnish it for the rest but looks again like being the case.

As for the ‘it’s a community problem’ – it is. Because if we don’t self police effectively, then we will all in the end suffer the effects.

The insurance issue is a funny thing – would someone sue for getting hurt on a jump?

Again Swinley – and the answer is yes. Whether justified or not it creates hassle, and cost, and landowners don’t need it.

I know its private land, but…

😆

I can’t imagine you’ll be getting great swathes of sympathy on here.

a lot of MTB’ers people are tight fisted dickheads with a sense of self entitlement.

FTFY

This is why we can’t have nice things, or better access rights in the overcrowded south east…

FTFY

I was more after a reason (not that he needs one) as to why he has suddenly blocked them off again as it seemed he was “happier” to allow people to ride there now. I would pay a few quid each time to ride there – no issues with that. The insurance issue is a funny thing – would someone sue for getting hurt on a jump? Surely if you ride there you no the risks…..compensation culture is getting stupid now.

If the trails are built by amateurs left as they are then no insurance would touch the risk. Trail centers are built to an agreed standard, with regular checks on the condition. If you had a similar jump you would need to make sure it was visible from a reasonable distance before a commitment was required, it would need qualifiers before the trail, the trail would have to be graded as blue/red/black/orange and the jump suitable for that.

A jump in the middle of an otherwise unmarked trail isn’t ever going to be an acceptable risk because the first person to crash and claim* can simply say they were riding down the trail and the trail wasn’t to the expected standard.

*not necessarily them, their private medical insurance, or their employer could sue for the loss. The rider could have nothing to do with it or no choice.

Bit late for it but working together with the land owner is common since. Putting together a proposal to have a sustainable trail network and a way to fund some insurance.

The requires the local mountain bike to work as a community.

There are efforts to do this but certain builders seem happy to ignore and just keep on building. Aside from the more legitimate group continually knocking down stuff that has been built I’m not sure what can be done.

I understand the jumps at the bottom of northern monkey are going to get knocked down pretty shortly, I just hope the original trail is left as that is one of the better ones in the area.

Paying for parking would be a shambles. People either wouldn’t bother or they would just dump their cars all round the village. It’s ok paying £4k for the latest carbon but paying £2 to park is beyond reasonable….or something along those lines.

The area has just become too popular for a non trail centre. Word of mouth and the frequency with which it is featured on certain riders social media videos hasn’t helped the situation.

Why should he?

As I said, to save himself the stress of fighting the trail building – stress is a killer – he has better things to do – if there was a viable way of offloading the stress then he would be smart to take it.

Maybe then there could be a crowdfunded project to build a sanctioned trail network on his land and an access group that would do the work of pointing out unsanctioned trails so they could be trashed easily.

If the crowdfunding could pay for someone to perform the trail inspection duties to satisfy the insurance then that would be good, but even if one of his employees had to do it then that would be less hassle than now as the sanctioned trails are in a known location.

We could even crowdfund a fairly decent bike so they could get around the trails on their inspection loop pretty quickly before getting back to their actual duties.

They could also move the army training areas up north and free up a lot of that land for leisure activities – which might ease the demand on the Surrey Hills area.

They could also move the army training areas up north and free up a lot of that land for leisure activities – which might ease the demand on the Surrey Hills area.

That would involve moving the army, it’s not just a field with a target at one end.

It’s 10,000’s of soldiers, and their families (and school places, GP’s, etc in the wider comunity).

1000’s of office staff.

Places to store and maintain the equipment and vehicles.

Proximity to other ranges (S. Wales, Dorset) and Whitehall.

etc etc etc

And then there are issues in cleaning up the land, it’s probably not even practical to decontaminate the existing land of all the ordinance, let alone get permission to start peppering some new Northumberland hillside with shells.

It’s a huge operation which isn’t going to just move to make way for some MTB’ers who refuse to follow a signpost.

They could also move the army training areas up north

What was that about self entitlement?….

Can I build a pump track in your back garden please?

What do you mean, “No”?

CaptainFlashheart – Member
Can I build a pump track in your back garden please?

What do you mean, “No”?

Don’t ask cfh, just do. Then wee in his shoes if he doesn’t maintain it for you.