you can expect someone will react to put you down quickly so as to reduce the number of people who turn around and get caught up in the mass hysteria.

What utter bollocks. You can see clearly in the video that this kind of behaviour was far more likely to incite violence than to control it.

out of interest to all the pro sack the copper lot . what would you have done in his shoes (and no i dont mean wee in them ) 😉

what would you have done in his shoes

Sorry- I can’t imagine being a thug so can’t really answer that

i dont mean being a thug, i mean if you were doing his job at that moment in time what do you think your actions would have been ?

I would have arrested her, not punched her in the face, then beaten her and finally legged it leaving my mates to face the potential riot.

adopted a non agressive posture
spoken to her, not at her
NOT slapped her round the face
etc

on the face of it , looks like the police officer has gone over the top, but none of us were at the scene and dont know what went on beforhand, or the attitude of the group.
police officers can make pre-emptive strikes against people if they feel they are going to be assaulted.
therfore, for arguments sake, the officer tells a woman to move back, she continues to move forward, he can , if he feels threatened, make a pre-emptive strike, I.e hit her in the face, should he feel that this level of force is proportionate to the threat level.He could have felt that she had a concealed weapon,she may have been part of an organised group bent on confrontation. On the other hand she could have been caught up in the crowd, and making her way home.
Im not saying this is the case with the featured officer, because i was not at the scene,
does anyone remember the incident in wigan a few months ago, where a soldier was ‘asaulted by 3 officers’
it was wideley reported on T.V and the cctv images looked shocking, i saw that incident in real life, and the soldier has previously assaulted a female on the street, and been extremeley violent to officers, none of this was recorded on tape.
Im not defending the officer in the met, but im not hanging him either.

I would have stood there and watched her. If she attacked me I would have restrained her and arrested her.

easygirl
on the face of it , looks like the police officer has gone over the top, but none of us were at the scene and dont know what went on beforhand, or the attitude of the group.
police officers can make preemptive strikes against people if they feel they are goping to be assaulted.
therfore, for arguments sake, the officer tells a woman to move back, she continues to move forward, he can , if he feels hreatened, make a pre-emptive strike, I.e hit her in the face, should he feel that this level of force is proportionate to the threat level.

The attitude of the group is irrelevant. What went on beforehand is also irrelevant because it’s obvious from the video the cop strikes the woman without justification. Unless you are trying to suggest that the woman assualts the police officer first and he ignores it, only to react to a verbal provocation shortly after?

Is striking someone in the face an appropriate response if you feel threatened by a bit of verbal? Is that what police are trained to do? Does that apply to members of the public who are getting verbal abuse from police? What are the guidelines regarding proportionate response?

Personally, I’duv twatted anyone who came near me, and given them a good kicking.

But I don’t have the requisite degree of control of my emotions and anger, needed to be a copper in such a tense and hostile situation.

Having been in situations like these, and much worse, I’ve seen how tensions can rise, and boil over. The crowd are angry, the coppers are wound up and scared, and it’s a recipe for disaster.

The real failure, was by the police leaders, who employed aggressive tactics from the beginning. Not helped by the actions of a few mindless thugs. I’d like to see that same copper, without the uniform and protective stuff, baton etc, up against a bloke of his size. Would he be so brave then? Probbly not. Bullies usually aren’t. His colleagues acted with restraint. He din’t, and has proved not to be fit to do the job. Stick the nasty **** on the dole.

As for identification; I think there should be new legislation, whereby coppers at events like this must carry their id numbers at all times, and those numbers should be highly visible and easily recognisable. Not carrying personal id numbers is wrong, as it can lead to difficulty in identifying those coppers what transgress, and break the Law. There needs to be more accountability, on an individual level, and collectively.

Recently, there were some armed Babylonians running round me estate. I went down and questioned why they were running round with guns, when there were people with kids around. They were extremely rude tro me, and one thug had a go at me for being ‘cocky’! I said ‘listen, sonny, you’re a public servant, and your job is to uphold the Law. If I ask you a question, you mind yer manners, and either respond politely, or just tell me that you can’t discuss it. No need to give it, ‘cos you’ve got a gun in your hand.’

The bloke was just a big bonehead violent thug; probbly hand-picked for the job. **** Neanderthal.

They buggered off, and I ‘phoned the local station to report his behaviour. I got a ‘phone call later, from a senior officer, to apologise for the thug’s behaviour. The bloke told me that the thug’s behaviour was unacceptable, and that he’d no right to talk to me the way he did.

I doubt owt was done to discipline him, though.

The Babylonians need to remember who they work for.

From what i can see the officer was makeing room for his fellow officers to deal with the troubble behind. ( weather thats was from he ketteling or not i cant say) So the press see this and all surge forward for the 1 milling pound photo for tomorrows news.
He orders them back. He then uses resonable force to move the lady back as shes not obaying a command from a police officer whos looking out for fellow officers.
Rather than backing off and giving space she steps up to the officer who has turned away partialy to move others back, he again moves her away this time with a back hand slap again to move her back. she again stepped up again and this time takes a blow to the leg to move her back.

The threat was not from the single womman moveing forward it was the press of bodys that may of crushed the officers on the floor dealing with the original problems, The sargent had to protect them so i find 3 blows used for that a fine and justifiable use of force to protect his fellow officers.

In that situation im afraid a cheary “im sorry old chap but would you mind just backing up a bit” does not cut it.

OMG

Not carrying personal id numbers is wrong, as it can lead to difficulty in identifying those coppers what transgress, and break the Law. There needs to be more accountability, on an individual level, and collectively.

So, you’ll be fully in favour of carrying an ID card then, I assume?

It’s a screwed up world if you can’t back-hand a woman anymore FFS !! 🙄

lol rich. i was just curious as i dont know what i would have done. and ive spent the last almost 20 years in the army and now fire service and have had to deal with some right ****.

not saying she was indeed a right **** either as the footage is too short to form an educated opinion on her really

i was just wondering really as a lot seem quick to try sack the copper , what sort of situations they themselves had been in to decide that they would be able to act properly under stress

ive been shot at, bricked, assulted , glassed , spat at and taunted/abused all whilst doing my job . oddly been shot at twice whilst in the fire service ;-( . ive also taken a batoning (if thats a word from the boys in blue . german police did it as i looked like the person they were looking for (ie short hair and english 😉 and the navy provo as they didnt like marines 😉

but i still couldnt say what id do in that situation as i wasnt there at that point in time. id be fairly sure i wouldnt do what he did but that is purely as it was a woman if it were a bloke then it may be a different story.

its hard to say what anyone in those situations would do unless they are in the thick of it . ive acted badly in some instances when the situation turned. only a few months ago i was ticked off for throwing bricks back at the group who were bricking us whilst we put out a fire but at the time it seemed the thing to too. all i was doing in reality was reloading their weapon ;-(

sorry to ramble but it just astounds me how people can form an instant opinion on things without seeing the whole picture and those that can do it having never been in a situation in any way like it

i’ll stop waffling now, and yes he shouldnt have struck her from that little clip 😉 (but if hed have slapped her right to start with he wouldnt have needed the baton

igmc 😉

more excellent (and proportionate) police work @ camp for climate change:

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993

note the chants of ‘this is not a riot’

more on the kettle:

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/1055

Verbal abuse is difficult for a baton wielding armour clad policeman to take…personal traits take over and boom…flashpoint

My post was hypothetical….I don’t agree/disagree with what the police officer did…why…because I WASN’T there…

Seems like all the ‘pro lets hang the cop’ brigade were there….how amazing a coincidence is that??

He then uses reasonable force to move the lady back as shes not obeying a command from a police officer who’s looking out for fellow officers.

Did he bollocks! As she was not breaking any Law, she don’t have to ‘obey’ the copper at all. The police are public servants, not the other way around.

CFH; I am not a public servant. Therefore, I have no need to carry ID. Having visible ID would make it easier to identify individual officers, and be beneficial in any legal cases concerning inappropriate use of police powers. And it might make the thugs think twice, if they know they can be easily identified. Not having ID is obstructive to Justice.

I would have arrested her,

& possibly escalate the situation, its not a easy one to call in the heat of things.

As for identification; I think there should be new legislation, whereby coppers at events like this must carry their id numbers at all times, and those numbers should be highly visible and easily recognisable. Not carrying personal id numbers is wrong, as it can lead to difficulty in identifying those coppers what transgress, and break the Law. There needs to be more accountability, on an individual level, and collectively.

I agree, I think the police locally were boosted by officers from other forces, so might not have had the same level of training/experience/confidence.

So these officers called from other districts, would they volunteer for this job and if so, I wonder how many saw this as a foreign [anything goes] holiday?

it might make the thugs think twice, if they know they can be easily identified. Not having ID is obstructive to Justice.

So, you’ll be fully in favour of carrying an ID card then, I assume? 😉

mick

i was just wondering really as a lot seem quick to try sack the copper , what sort of situations they themselves had been in to decide that they would be able to act properly under stress

Speaking purely as a civilian, I’ve been in a not dissimilar situation to that on two occasions. Both occasions I managed to not strike anyone. Perhaps if I had the full backing of “the force” behind me I might have beaten people with impunity.

I’ve witnessed/been caught in numerous riots so I think I have a fair amount of context to weigh that up against.

I’m not someone charged with upholding Law and Order, as a Public Servant. 😉

Just as well, really.

I’d be like Jack Regan.

‘Look, I’ve not had any sleep, and I’m not in the mood to muck about. Put yer trousers on, yer nicked!’

Mick (firestarter)…..excellent excellent post! Was going to state exactly the issues that you raise!

Though Id hardly put what the FS has to deal with in the same vein as the police…..I know dribble stains on your pillow can be traumatising but come on 😆

lol brack im not just refering to the fs experience but also military ones and not saying they are owt like the police have to face , theirs is a thankless task i for one would not want to do

but merely giving examples of situations ive been in and still dont know what i would have done in that particular instance

😉

All the people I know recruited by the police were ex Halfords staff who were thick as $hit power hungry morans/control freaks.

Maybe we should do what the USA & Australia has and actually test people with qualifications such as degress instead of recruiting uneducated morans.

I used to respect the Police -I still do but I also think they’re bunch of armed monkies.

No I know. As an ex soldier ( and ex Fireman…got bored), I really do think that a lot of people on this forum have led very fortunate but sheltered lives.

For them to hang draw and quarter an individual via video footage is just wrong.

I have not read every post but many of you don’t realise that the cops have a right to use force – so long as it is proportionate. As for arresting her – if they arrest every person in this sort of situation then they will run out of cops – the cops will have been outnumbered. Two cops to every arrested person.

Just remember – a cop has the right to use force – they can grasp you, push you and hit you so long as it is proportionate to the situation. If someone moves towards a cop who tells them to back off and move away the cop can use force to ensure this is obeyed.

They can also use pain to coontrol people.

The arguments here should be about two things
The overall police tactics and was the force used proportionate.

lol zaskar i hope that was tongue in cheek 😉

In that situation im afraid a cheary “im sorry old chap but would you mind just backing up a bit” does not cut it.

Except that another officer basically did exactly that a minute later with seemingly successful results.

Good point, Zaskar; I was astounded to learn, a few years ago, that no academic qualifications are required to join the police. Shocking.

Mind you; ignorant, uneducated coppers are praps more easy to control, and will be less questioning about the orders given them.

hijack

brack i nearly went to iraq last year on a nice little earner but the brigade wanted me back on the new pension after my year out . which meant id have to do another 6 and a half years before i could go ;-( if you were that bored you should have moved to one of the leeds inner city centre stations its great fun 😉

hijack over 😉

And all this ‘you don’t know what it’s like in that situation’ stuff – well sorry, but I have had much bigger, more threatening people be much more aggressive than that woman was, and have managed to deal with the situation without slapping people or hitting them with a stick. And I am not supposed to be a professional trained in crowd control and behaviour management.

TandemJeremy
The arguments here should be about two things
The overall police tactics and was the force used proportionate.

It has been. It wasn’t.

brack
I know. As an ex soldier, I really do think that a lot of people on this forum have led very fortunate but sheltered lives.

For them to hang draw and quarter an individual via video footage is just wrong.

Some have, some haven’t. And some don’t feel the need to qualify their opinions by mentioning what careers they might have had.

You don’t need to have been in the military to form an opinion on an unwarranted assault.

grumm – Member
And all this ‘you don’t know what it’s like in that situation’ stuff – well sorry, but I have had much bigger, more threatening people be much more aggressive than that woman was, and have managed to deal with the situation without slapping people or hitting them with a stick. And I am not supposed to be a professional trained in crowd control and behaviour management.

Seconded.

Oh but Im not the one with the opinion!!

Protesters aren’t as tough as they used to be.

<ducks>

brack
Oh but Im not the one with the opinion!!

brack

For them to hang draw and quarter an individual via video footage is just wrong.

Now I think it’s safe to assume that by hang, draw and quarter you mean, sack or prosecute? So I’m guessing your opinion is that the assault was justified or am I missing something?

I didn’t think people get hung drawn and quartered anymore, or perhaps the met are introducing it as proportionate response to assaulting a police officer.

Have a look at the Met recruitment website…… it talks about “customer focus” and the competency based interview seems to have nothing to do with handling threatening/abusive people and more to do with “customer satisfaction”. You also have to be credit checked to become a police officer. So really the people that will get the jobs are people living with parents, never had a credit card or loan and a bit of retail experience…. not exactly confidence inspiring

I think a thorough psychological check should be a rquirement for any aspiring police officer, so that anyone with violent (or cowardly) tendances could be removed from the recruitment process, and the credit check should be removed as it has naff all with someone’s ability to do the job

and the credit check should be removed as it has naff all with someone’s ability to do the job

I guess that has something to do with not wanting folks who are in deep debt & may be tempted to ‘liberate’ evidence

A credit check might reveal that you are poor, and therefore wanting the job to earn money, which as we all know is the wrong reason for becoming a cop. Being bullied or being a bully at school is the correct reason to join the force.

If you have no money, no qualifications and still want to beat people there’s always the army.

out of interest mistergnar what were you doing to be caught up in numerous riots ?

mick (firestarter)
out of interest mistergnar what were you doing to be caught up in numerous riots ?

Usually standing outside a pub was enough. Like the time the RUC were called to break up a scuffle between roughly ten random teenagers who were scrapping outside a pub on a narrow cobbled street. The first landrover arrived and one of the youths stood infront of it. So the police officer drove over him crushing his pelvis and breaking both of his legs. Suddenly the situation changed from having ten or so troublemakers and a few hundred peaceful people leaving a pub to a few hundred angry rioters who were penned in by police.

Sometimes trying to go home, other times actually being at home and watching it unfold out my window.