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  • Moral / ethical dillemma – homeless chap
  • tjagain
    Full Member

    I often see a homeless chap begging outside my local shops and I sometimes buy him a sandwich as I did tonight. I made the mistake of talking to him tonight – he is sleeping rough and its a thoroughly wet and miserable night out there. ( he has a hostel place from Monday)

    I have an empty flat plus the one I live in and the empty one is being refurbished right now but its warm and dry. I also have several sleeping bags and sets of waterproofs sitting in cupboards- he appeared to have nothing much bar the clothes he was in. Big bundle of guilt for me.

    How far do I go in helping him? I’ve fed him – is that enough? give him a sleeping bag? let him have the use of the floor in the empty flat?

    and before you start – this is not a troll or an attempt to make me look good. I am genuinely conflicted ( I don’t want him in my nice flat / adding complication to my life) but it seems hard to leave him out there

    Opinions?

    lunge
    Full Member

    I’d give be him a meal, a brew and a sleeping bag. I may be being harsh but I’d not be letting him, or any other stranger into a flat I own.

    I too open myself to abuse for that comment.

    bearnecessities
    Full Member

    and before you start – this is not a troll or an attempt to make me look good.

    It’s quite simple, do what you want to do. You know that though, don’t you.

    As far as trolling is concerned, you’re a bit obvious. 🙂

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    Hoof him in the slats.

    Obviously.

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    Sorry. Forgot this….. 😉

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    Try fostering first.

    Adoption is a lifetime commitment.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I’d give him the waterproofs and a sleeping bag – help him out, but not an ongoing commitment.

    That’s if he does want help, of course.

    rwamartin
    Free Member

    If he goes into the flat then at some stage he’ll have to leave and you’ll feel guilty that you’ve got to ask him to go.

    Offering him waterproofs would be good as he’ll welcome them now and if he’s ever homeless again.

    If you still feel guilty about him then you could offer to pay for a hotel for him until Monday.

    It’s a difficult call.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Good point – there is a bunkhouse / independent youth hostel place round the corner

    the flat would only be one night – I can be hard when I want to be but I don’t want him in it at all really. Just seems so selfish!

    km79
    Free Member

    I’ve gave away a sleeping bag and a survival bag before. I was walking through Glasgow coming back from a trip late at night and gave it to someone in a similar situation along with a couple packets of food I had left. It was well received. Letting someone into your flat has associated risks – what if he was Dirty Mike and he brought the boys round?

    nonk
    Free Member

    I Always try to look at with the view that I would rather get f&&ed over now and again than live in fear of it
    So I would say give him the flat floor if you feel it’s the thing to do

    zippykona
    Full Member

    Good for you. Even the smallest thing will be a big deal for him.
    I would think that letting him stay in the flat would be going too far as mentioned above, at sometime he will have to leave and that will be difficult.

    rickmeister
    Full Member

    Well done Tj, everyone needs a lift sometime in their life….

    Does he know good spots to hole up in? Got any spare clothes and a bivi bag or tarp… Get hot food through the weekend for him… Friend with a lock up or garage?

    Re your flat, unsure…your call. Would he play ball overnight and be on the street during the day?

    deepreddave
    Free Member

    Buying a hot meal is the recommended thing to do. People are homeless for lots of reasons so I’d say you’re doing way more than most if you give him food and clothing/sleeping gear.

    dannybgoode
    Full Member

    The only thing to bear in mind is if you do let him user the flat are you opening yourself to store lengthy eviction process if for some reason he decides be doesn’t want to leave.

    Hate to be cold about these things and it may be just dandy but it has the potential to go a bit pear shaped.

    sweepy
    Free Member

    We used to have a Lobby dosser when we lived in a flat. He was a nice lad, just didn’t cope too well with life and never had a start. We couldn’t do much to help beyond a bit of food, company and making his time there as comfortable as possible.
    You can only do what you can.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    It is far better to support the charities and organisations that are actually experts in helping the homeless rather than providing them with temporary, but well meaning, relief for their cirucumstances. You might be unwittingly perpetuating the chaps situation rather than actually helping it. If these organisations had he resources they need then there is no reason for any homeless person to go without a bed or meal, and they will get access to a whole more help beyond their immediate needs for a meal and a bed. If you know an alcoholic and pity their situation the last thing you do is buy them a pint.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Ta for your thoughts chaps – this place is better for this sort of thing than facebook which can be an echo chamber. watching the rugby and having my tea now – I’ll pop out at halftime with a sleeping bag

    Ta

    tjagain
    Full Member

    He was away when I popped out. so middle class angst assuaged without actually giving my old sleeping bag away which I would have been sad about

    Phew – narrow escape 😉

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    As far as trolling is concerned, you’re a bit obvious.

    I was never about in the original TJ years, based on this and blatant trolling elswhere was it really such a basic level in the past?

    Houns
    Full Member

    Good on you TJ

    Clover
    Full Member

    I never used to give people money. But there seem to be so many these days that I can only assume it’s our systematic failure that’s pushed more people onto the street. I don’t go into Manchester that often so a big shift over the last year is noticeable – and it’s really really shifted. I ran all the ‘it’s better to support homelessness charities’ ‘you’d only be funding drugs’ arguments through my head and in the end came to the conclusion that I didn’t really care.

    Sticking a few quid into someone’s battered paper cup was a gesture of solidarity and a tiny one at that. I feel mortified that we have so little support at the margins and yes, I should do something more but I didn’t vote for this and I really don’t know how to fix it apart from getting shot of this government.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Kryton – I can assure you this is not a troll at all but a genuine desire to sort out my thoughts on this because on here I can trust I will be given different sides of the debate and people will pull no punches.

    which indeed is more or less what happened. And I thank the STW lot for doing so

    The poppy thread was unwise and done without thinking – and I apologised several times for starting it.

    jamj1974
    Full Member

    Actually TJ, based purely on your posts – you would be one of the people I think would do exactly what’s best. Many people would not care enough to even think about the options and try and make one happen as you did.

    Coyote
    Free Member

    I think that the flat may be a commitment too far. The offer of a decent sleeping bag and waterproofs however is a very thoughtful gesture. A decent brew and maybe a meal from the chippy would probably do down well too.

    garage-dweller
    Full Member

    I was never about in the original TJ years, based on this and blatant trolling elswhere was it really such a basic level in the past?

    I was around then and despite being one of those who has had some differences of opinion with TJ in certain areas back in the day I have never regarded him as a troll.

    This thread didn’t even have a whiff of troll to me. From what I can recall of TJ’s attitude to those at the less fortunate end of the scale asking that kind of question would be quite in character.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    “( he has a hostel place from Monday)”

    Don’t let him in your flat. Give him £50, that should give him enough cash for a couple of visits to a chippy and enough Costa coffees to keep him warm and dry all day.

    I thought there was a guarantee that nobody sleeps rough for more than one night so, if that’s true, he should have a Hostel Place by tomorrow.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    outofbreath – not that I have ever heard of. We have many rough sleepers in Edinburgh every night. simply not enough hostel places available.

    Tinners
    Full Member

    You sound like one of life’s good guys to me, TJagain.
    I’ve often thought how I’d respond in such a situation. When I was a student, I once had a tap on the door of our city centre student house by a very dishevelled guy (tramp?) asking to use the toilet (he smelled as if it was only to finish a job that he’d already started). My first instinct was suspicion but he looked genuine so I let him in and walked him to the toilet (and waited outside in case his motive was to pinch something). He thanked me and left but it was a lousy night outside and I’ll admit to feeling uneasy at sering him go back out into the rain. Typical student house with friends and friends of friends crashing out all the time. Housemates gave me stick about it because they thought he was casing the joint but nothing further came of it.
    I’d certainly buy a hot drink & meal. I wouldn’t let him into the flat but if I was genuinely worried, I’d drop him to local Salvation Army or Wallich. If neither of those an option and extreme situation (frail or extreme weather) then consider B&B, but have passed many homeless people and never done that, I must say.
    It’s surprisingly easy to find yourself homeless by all accounts. Probably better in the long term to look at voluntary work for the homeless if you want to make an impact. Good on you, I say.

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    When i was dating Mrs K, we over orrdered at china town, and i gave the resulting doggie bag to a tramp in Charing Cross station. He threw it back at me with a bunch of vitriol.

    They’re not all good, or real.

    leffeboy
    Full Member

    This stuff is difficult. Some folks are genuine and are stuck on the streets, some come in from outside and are just looking for cash (I know as I used to help in one of the centres and talked to them regularly). The problem is you can’t always tell but it’s always worth helping anyway to catch the one person who is just stuck and needs a bit of help. I knew one person who would buy spare gloves and hats in shops just so they could give them out when they saw someone that needed them, and another girl who would take them into shops so they could find what they needed. It’s a situation that seems to be getting worse so well done to all that help in any way

    beefheart
    Free Member

    I have worked in the housing/homelessness sector for over 10 years.
    I would say go with your gut instinct.
    There are many homeless people- some are more naive and desperate than others.
    If you have the means to assist someone without excessive impact on your own life, then wouldn’t that be a good thing?

    jamj1974
    Full Member

    If I pass someone who looks like they need some help and I have cash – I always give it or buy them food/hot drinks. Whether they are genuinely in need or how they will spend it doesn’t trouble me. I always think it’s better to give the benefit of the doubt, to give what you can and know you have done ‘something’.

    konagirl
    Free Member

    I thought there was a guarantee that nobody sleeps rough for more than one night

    I know there are requirements for the local authority to provide care and attempt to find accommodation but it is quite complicated (England, Wales and Scotland all have differing legislation) and depends on someone’s circumstances in becoming homeless (as well as their ‘priority’ in England). There is additional provision of shelter under the Severe Weather Emergency Protocol but it obviously isn’t cold enough for that yet.

    A lot of the ‘it’s better to support homelessness charities’ emphasis is to do with the costs associated with providing support to someone who is already homeless versus preventing homelessness in the first place. There are a number of studies now that demonstrate this (crisis report and references therein). So in an ideal world where there was enough money to do it, the local authorities and/or charities would be more ‘efficient’ with your money to keep people out of homelessness in the first place. It is very dependent on individual circumstances, but it is estimated that preventing 40,000 people from becoming homeless could save £370 million a year in the additional support costs once someone becomes homeless. Basically, investing in prevention services is the most efficient way of helping the greatest number of people.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    You have to question the morals of English people buying several properties in Scotland – pushing up prices, reducing available housing etc – when local resident cannae afford a home of their own and end up on the streets. Bloody middle class, green Tory Sassenachs messing it up for the rest. 😉

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    He threw it back at me with a bunch of vitriol.

    Did he get pudding?

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    This thread didn’t even have a whiff of troll to me. From what I can recall of TJ’s attitude to those at the less fortunate end of the scale asking that kind of question would be quite in character.

    In which case I retract my jibe and apologise to TJ for the slight.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    No worries Kryton. NOt offended at all.

    Why is teamhurtmore on my thread? He knows I do not read his posts. I would bet its another sneering personal attack.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    TJ – best advice I can give would be to contact st. mungo’s, who will take all the details and try and connect with him.

    They even have an online referral form:

    http://streetlink.org.uk

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Ta Ninfan

    Ruddy freezing today – I’ll see if he is around.

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