It’s basic etiquette really. By shunning the highway code you are slowing faster moving traffic, reducing the motorway’s capacity and probably being dangerous to others. Use the inside lane when it is clear ahead, with these exceptions:

How is capacity reduced? There’s nothing preventing you from using the inside lane. And if the hogger reduces the speed of following traffic, then the capacity of the motorway is increased, not decreased.

In summary, middle lane hogging is only more than a very minor irritation if you’re indulging in daft behaviour yourself.

I’m pleased to report the French speed cameras are very reasonable. I’ve managed to fire them off quite a few times now(just a little over, nothing silly) and never had a ticket 🙂

Beware, when you see a French speed camera sign, it will be followed shortly by a camera, not like here….

<edit> of course capacity is reduced if traffic is flowing below optimal speed… tsssk, kids 🙂

<edit> of course capacity is reduced if traffic is flowing below optimal speed… tsssk, kids

The lower the speed, the greater the capacity. Think about it.

Take that to it’s logical conclusion; maximum ‘capacity’ is @ stationary bumper to bumper. That’s not really the point of a road is it? It’s the ability to ‘process’ (transit) traffic….

“Cops are nowhere to be seen on the motorways in this country. Coming from Australia I was surprised by the lack of enforcement. Police seem not to care about policing over here. Nice, as you get to sit 5 mph over the limit without fear of losing £100s, not so nice when the roads are infested with useless and inconsiderate drivers.”

Which bit of Australia?????

Australians seem to exhibit the worst driving ‘skills’ I’ve ever seen. Totally inattentive, incapable of reading the road, zero lane discipline, no concept of how to drive in rain (never mind fog or frost), or around corners. Starting at some point within the first five minutes after the lights change to green also appears to be an issue, and roundabouts seem to be a complete mystery. Very blasé about drink driving, and the cops and pollies seem to think the only way to improve road safety is through punitive fines for being 2 km/h over the limit and ever decreasing speed limits, rather than actually teaching any of the halfwits how to drive.

I’m convinced if you fed half of London’s drivers speed, and the other half five pints you’d still see better driving skills compared to your average day in Australia.”

That’s because there’s far too many English immigrants down under :-p
If you’d read my post, did you see my write how good Australian’s were at driving? I think you’d find you’re quite wrong about drink driving as well, most people I know back home would nominate a skipper before going out to avoid drink driving. It’s not like you can just jump on the tube at midnight and stagger home over there. Roundabouts here seem to be alien to most people, while they sit stuck in the middle of them rather than giving way. Here, it seems to be common practice to squeeze 3 more cars through every red light. Do that back home and you’d get a nice infringement notice after the camera pings you. Not being able or willing to use the indicator seems to be the norm over here and speeding is taken for granted. You did get one thing correct, which was the police are very strict on minor infringements. Maybe the Brit cops need to go there to learn how to work? I’d prefer something in the middle of the 2 extremes personally. Have you been to Oz or just watched Crocodile Dundee?

Take that to it’s logical conclusion; maximum ‘capacity’ is @ stationary bumper to bumper. That’s not really the point of a road is it? It’s the ability to ‘process’ (transit) traffic….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Why do you think managed motorways reduce the speed limit when it’s congested?

I’m pleased to report the French speed cameras are very reasonable. I’ve managed to fire them off quite a few times now(just a little over, nothing silly) and never had a ticket

Beware, when you see a French speed camera sign, it will be followed shortly by a camera, not like here….

Well they have reciprocal deals with a few countries but not the UK (yet). When I had a UK plate car I was fine but I switched to a Luxembourg plate and got 3 tickets in one trip. That said, they’re not above clocking you on the autoroute then waiting for you down the road and having you pull over.

In France the camera has to be within approx 1km of the sign. However, mobile cameras do NOT need to do this; I know one that is there 50% of the time I drive down a certain road so it’s barely mobile but I guess the fact they CAN move it is enough

ransos – Member

Why do you think managed motorways reduce the speed limit when it’s congested?

Because it reduces the wave effect. Presumably there’s a minimum speed at which the effect is offset by a reduction in throughput otherwise we’d see the matrix signs down to 5 or 10mph?

Because it reduces the wave effect.

In other words, reducing the speed limit increases the capacity of the motorway

Presumably there’s a minimum speed at which the effect is offset by a reduction in throughput otherwise we’d see the matrix signs down to 5 or 10mph?

Journey times with a very low speed limit would of course be longer, but that doesn’t mean the capacity of the road has been reduced.

I think a lot of people stay in the middle lane as the slow lane is full of lorries

Drove from Glasgow to Mabie on Saturday down the M74. Sat in the inside lane with the cruise control on 60mph. Don’t think I overtook a single vehicle and it was a far more pleasant experience than weaving in and out of traffic.

It’s a speed limit, not a speed requirement…

Have you been to Oz or just watched Crocodile Dundee?

I’ve lived here for three years mate, and done quite a bit of driving in all states apart from the NT. I’m off to Ceduna tomorrow actually, so that’ll be another nine hours driving on the highway before heading inland over Googs to Tarcoola.

Nowhere, not even Africa, have I seen such consistently poor and inattentive driving as I have here. No apparent ability to read the road, plan in advance or anticipate that a reaction in the form of slowing, speeding up or changing direction might be required in the immediate future. They might as well all drive BMWs for all the indicators I see. Lane discipline is so abysmal I actually thought at first that the freeways were like the US for a while until it was suggested I should try not to undertake as it is actually illegal. When I enquired how I was supposed to get past the line of drongos doing 70-80 km/h in the outside lane of a three-lane freeway, there was a shrug.

Funny you mention the lights, seeing as I’d never really seen much RLJing or running the amber until I moved out here. Yet, when the lights turn green, everyone just sits there looking at them, as if the change in colour is a new and fascinating feature that they’ve never seen before. I suppose it explains why Webber’s so crap at starts in F1 though! Perhaps, if drivers here considered moving when the lights change, they’d have less cause to carry on piling through when they go amber.

Most of it is careless and inattentive, rather than outright dangerous, I’ll grant you. But this carelessness is occurring whilst in charge of 2 tonnes of V6 powered metal, it’s very easy for the carelessness to become dangerous, especially when most drivers here seem barely aware there’s anything beyond the end of their bonnet. Mirrors seem to only be there to assist with makeup, from what I’ve gleaned to date.

Oh, and British cops – I know several out here, and they seem to share my opinion.

if they eradicate the middle lane drivers, who will become the idiots of the road?
who will I chastise , swear at and drive in circles round to entertain myself on Britain’s boring motorways?

Journey times with a very low speed limit would of course be longer, but that doesn’t mean the capacity of the road has been reduced.

There is of course the another factor- the number of people wishing to travel i.e. the number of car miles to be completed remains constant. If a journey takes twice as long (or 20 or 30% longer ) by reducing the speed limit the number of vehicles that will be travelling at any one time will also double(or go up by 20 or 30%). Therefore the capacity of the road might increase at a reduced speed but it needs to to handle the increased traffic the reduction in speed will generate.

How is capacity reduced? There’s nothing preventing you from using the inside lane.

The threat of the inattentive driver suddenly pulling back into the inside lane is significant ime.

Lane discipline is so abysmal I actually thought at first that the freeways were like the US for a while until it was suggested I should try not to undertake as it is actually illegal

In most if not all states you are required to keep right. Just goes to show how much attention people pay to their driving in the US…

There is of course the another factor- the number of people wishing to travel i.e. the number of car miles to be completed remains constant. If a journey takes twice as long (or 20 or 30% longer ) by reducing the speed limit the number of vehicles that will be travelling at any one time will also double(or go up by 20 or 30%). Therefore the capacity of the road might increase at a reduced speed but it needs to to handle the increased traffic the reduction in speed will generate.

But that could only apply if the motorway is below capacity. Evidence shows that, paradoxically, reducing the speed limit on busy motorways reduces journey time.

If our middle lane hogger is using the motorway during a quieter period, then there shouldn’t be any problem in overtaking using the third lane, so we’re back to “minor irritation” territory I think.

But that could only apply if the motorway is below capacity. Evidence shows that, paradoxically, reducing the speed limit on busy motorways reduces journey time.

Indeed it does. But I think it’s because it reduces the consequences of human error rather than fancy maths to do with dispersion distances. But yes, it still works.

If our middle lane hogger is using the motorway during a quieter period, then there shouldn’t be any problem in overtaking using the third lane, so we’re back to “minor irritation” territory I think.

I agree, in that dashboard vid from a lorry back on the first page the driver was getting wilding excited with his expletives about a drivers behaviour that had absolutely no effect on his own progress. I have a feeling the danger of middle lane hoggers comes more from the indignant reaction of others than the act itself.

I have a feeling the danger of middle lane hoggers comes more from the indignant reaction of others than the act itself.

I agree. It’s much easier to focus on the relatively rare instances of this causing a genuine problem than the much more common stuff like tailgating and speeding.

Have you been to Oz or just watched Crocodile Dundee?
I’ve lived here for three years mate, and done quite a bit of driving in all states apart from the NT. I’m off to Ceduna tomorrow actually, so that’ll be another nine hours driving on the highway before heading inland over Googs to Tarcoola.

Nowhere, not even Africa, have I seen such consistently poor and inattentive driving as I have here. No apparent ability to read the road, plan in advance or anticipate that a reaction in the form of slowing, speeding up or changing direction might be required in the immediate future. They might as well all drive BMWs for all the indicators I see. Lane discipline is so abysmal I actually thought at first that the freeways were like the US for a while until it was suggested I should try not to undertake as it is actually illegal. When I enquired how I was supposed to get past the line of drongos doing 70-80 km/h in the outside lane of a three-lane freeway, there was a shrug.

Funny you mention the lights, seeing as I’d never really seen much RLJing or running the amber until I moved out here. Yet, when the lights turn green, everyone just sits there looking at them, as if the change in colour is a new and fascinating feature that they’ve never seen before. I suppose it explains why Webber’s so crap at starts in F1 though! Perhaps, if drivers here considered moving when the lights change, they’d have less cause to carry on piling through when they go amber.

Most of it is careless and inattentive, rather than outright dangerous, I’ll grant you. But this carelessness is occurring whilst in charge of 2 tonnes of V6 powered metal, it’s very easy for the carelessness to become dangerous, especially when most drivers here seem barely aware there’s anything beyond the end of their bonnet. Mirrors seem to only be there to assist with makeup, from what I’ve gleaned to date.

Oh, and British cops – I know several out here, and they seem to share my opinion.

Well, I think we’re both living on different planets if you think the drivers in the UK are much better (especially in London) than in Oz. I’m not going to stick up for everyone in Oz though, there’s plenty of idiot drivers there too. I drove there for 16 years (inc NT where there’s unlimited limits) before moving to the UK 6 years ago. And if you think the drivers in Africa are better than those in Oz (have you been to Cairo??) I’d have to question your eyesight as well as your judgement.

It’s much easier to focus on the relatively rare instances of this causing a genuine problem….

Do you ever drive on the motorway during busy periods? This behaviour is not as rare as you may think.

Carrying on at the speed limit in the inside lane while ignoring muppets tailgaiting each other in lane 3 is definitely not an offence

Genuine question here… So if you were ‘undertaking’ someone and they chose that moment to pull back in, who would be at fault?

Genuine question here… So if you were ‘undertaking’ someone and they chose that moment to pull back in, who would be at fault?

The person making the manoeuvre. Why wouldn’t it be?

You’re not doing anything inherently wrong in undertaking (unless you’re speeding).

The person making the manoeuvre. Why wouldn’t it be?

Because they could argue that the person undertook them – surely without a ‘freeway’ system it would be a fair defence to say they didn’t expect someone to come up on their inside?

Because they could argue that the person undertook them

…and?

surely without a ‘freeway’ system it would be a fair defence to say they didn’t expect someone to come up on their inside?

So if I go round a bend not expecting a cyclist and mow one down, that’s a fair defence?

If you’re making a manoeuvre, it’s your responsibility to ensure that it’s safe to do so. I’m not convinced there’s any excuse for not looking where you’re pointing two tonnes of steel.

Whilst it is not illegal to undertake you can be prosecuted for dangerous driving doing so even if under the speed limit. It’s definitely not something to do injudiciously.

Saying (deliberately) undertaking (as opposed to legally passing traffic that is moving slower) isn’t illegal is a bit like saying hitting someone over the head with a masher niblick isn’t illegal. Although it is true no law exists specifically prohibiting either, they are both covered by other laws.

I thought you were allowed to undertake providing you were already in that lane. If you move lane to undertake, then that’s being a nob.

Edit: I did also mean if traffic was backing up in other lanes 😳

Rule 268: Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

Either we’re driving on different roads or that’s an urban myth. I can’t say as I’ve ever noticed any great difference in the surface quality in different lanes, certainly not consistently anyway.

I’ve noticed it frequently in Wiltshire, Somerset, and on the M4. The left-hand lane develops a groove due to heavy vehicles sitting there, which then collects water when it rains, so you have effectively a little stream there.
Tog Hill, on the A420 out of Bristol used to have a real problem with this, to the extent that driving up it in heavy rain one night, my mate, who was driving, couldn’t figure out why his engine kept revving when he tried to accelerate; it dawned on us that he was aquaplaning going uphill because of the volume of water running down what were two gutters in the carriageway, formed by heavy lorries, his tyres just spinning on the water. The next lane is perfectly smooth. (There are two lanes going up, one down, and the surface was improved a while back).
It’s also noticeable along Hungerdown Lane, (the old A350 trunk route from north to south) which I have to use to get home, where a groove formed just in the place where you naturally ride a bike, so you find yourself sitting in a trough of filthy water.
Or used to, until a cycle lane was marked out, which forced the traffic outwards, slightly.
Surface erosion is also noticeable where vehicles tyres naturally sit on the carriageway.
Certainly not an urban myth when you can see and feel the effects while driving and riding roads you use every day.

Because they could argue that the person undertook them – surely without a ‘freeway’ system it would be a fair defence to say they didn’t expect someone to come up on their inside?

1 If they didn’t look and indicate its pretty much them.
2 Otherwise, see 1.

I’ve noticed it frequently in Wiltshire, Somerset, and on the M4.

We are driving on different roads, then.

If you move lane to undertake, then that’s being a nob.

If I can move lanes to undertake (safely), the driver in front is in the wrong lane.

The news coverage of this has really pissed me off.

Without fail ‘middle lane hoggers’ is the first thing mentioned. Surely that’s the lesser of the three evils.

French drivers are as or more rude, aggressive and crap as UK drivers.

Not towards cyclists. I have very little experience of driving in France, loads of experience of cycling. In all the time I’ve spent cycling there I got cut up by a driver once. The car war British.

Just to go completely OT, but I thought you might like the story about that. It overtook us when heading into a town, and got stuck in a traffic jam, so we caught them up. I stopped alongside, knocked on the window and said roughly the following:
“Sometimes I’m ashamed to be British. You should have a look at how much space all the French drivers give to cyclists when overtaking them and try to give that much yourself.”

Will there also be the “It wasn’t me driving the car that morning” defence?

That one would appear to get you an 8 month 2 month prison sentence rather than a £100 fine according to recent evidence.

HAs anyone admitted to being a crap driver yet or are all stw drivers AWESOME?