Will this include wagons overtaking another wagon and hogging the middle lane for two or three miles while they do it?

Nah. It’ll NEVER get into the head of most of them. Because THEY DON’T KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT.

See that’s exactly the attitude I was referring to 🙂

Will this include wagons overtaking another wagon and hogging the middle lane for two or three miles while they do it?

Yes, the classic “my speed limiter is in real life 0.01km/h faster than your speed limiter so I’m going to crawl past you over the next 5 miles” scenario. Just as disruptive to traffic flow as middle lane hogging cars imo.

Still not sure about the whole fines thing though, it just seems to indicate that you can buy your way out of shit driving.

Except that a phone can be bought, as can taxi rides, so you can sort of buy your way out of that as well.

Capital punishment is the only way.

In seriousness, think it’s a fine idea, would love to know how the police (I assume) are going to have time to enforce it. I agree however that the fact is, the general population will start to use get the idea and hopefully standards will improve. Worked with seatbelts, drink driving, child seats. All unenforceable, yet now are just done.
Speeding is the hard one as the one thing speeding is, that the others really aren’t, is good fun (before I’m shot, I don’t think anyone will say in their heart of hearts that going fast isn’t fun, whether it’s advisable and safe, or should be done in a car at all is a different question)

Think many of the CLOC members are just in a daze, and haven’t even realised they’re doing it. Often been on the autobahn at 140km/h, remaining in lane 2 passing mostly trucks, and eventually catch up with someone doing 100-120 in lane 2 well past the last truck they passed, chatting away with other occupants, and running on hypnotic autopilot.

Also annoying are what I call “dippers”. Those who pass a vehicle and pull straight in front of them, and instantly indicate and pull straight back out to pass the next vehicle. Presumably dipping back into lane 1 just trying to prove they’re not CLOC? or just idiots.

They have the tailgating law in Germany. I was led to believe it was about €200+ fine. You should see the tailgating here. Totally unenforceable law.

Will this include wagons overtaking another wagon and hogging the middle lane for two or three miles while they do it?

Aren’t there also trials of no lorry overtaking in some areas?

Sorry, I’m a realist!

See that’s exactly the attitude I was referring to

MSP has it – attitudes do change given enough time. I was in a transfer coach coming back from holiday in Turkey last weekend and the driver was constantly on his phone. Not illegal in Turkey but the British passengers was all getting very twitchy about him not concentrating until the rep was instructed to get him to stop it. Yet I bet 10 years ago the same people would have been happy to use the phone whilst driving themselves but are now conditioned to think it’s bad.

They have the tailgating law in Germany. I was led to believe it was about €200+ fine. You should see the tailgating here. Totally unenforceable law.

They also have a lane discipline law, which does seem to work to a certain extent, which I think is enforced by cameras.

I could go a week or 2 on the M6/60/62 and see none.

I see between 1 and 4 every morning. (Police vehicles)

The recognition that’s a problem can only be deemed as positive imo. The fines, well why not?

then just a 20euro fine with no points, just to let you know you have been caught and to be more careful in future.

And that’s exactly why proper driving isn’t enforced, you should already know what the rules are, that’s why you passed a test. This constant degredation of the seriousness of driving poorly makes things worse, it says don’t worry will all do it really (and we do, me included). IMO fines should be significantly higher (to help pay for the enforecement, polluter pays type principle and to act as a true deterent) and points more rigourously enforced, 12 pts and you’re off the road, no excuses.

Nearly 2000 deaths a year and no one takes it seriously, but heaven help us if someone slips walking up to an electrical cabinet on the side of the motorway and there’s no staircase and hand rail, it’s about time we got our priorities sorted.

They have the tailgating law in Germany. I was led to believe it was about €200+ fine. You should see the tailgating here. Totally unenforceable law.

I thought there were cameras that measured the gap relative to the speed. Either that or my German friend is telling porkies, as he claims to have received rather a large fine for it as he was caught by them as he was approaching a car he was about to overtake.

then just a 20euro fine with no points, just to let you know you have been caught and to be more careful in future.

To be fair, the only time I’ve been caught speeding was on a (almost – there turned out to be a copper hiding behind a sand due) deserted road in Tassie, where I received a stern talking to, and the fine/points suspended for three years. I can ho0nestly say it did actually have an effect on me, and I rarely speed any more, even on actually deserted roads in the middle of the middle of nowhere.

So a light touch (with the appropriate perpetrator) can be an effective deterrant

Driving on French motorways is a pure pleasure. Speeds are a lot higher and with good lane discipline it’s a whole lot safer.

There must be another France that I am yet to discover!

patriotpro – Member
I could go a week or 2 on the M6/60/62 and see none.
I see between 1 and 4 every morning. (Police vehicles)

That’s because you’re a policeman silly 🙂

Driving while chatting on a mobile has been illegal for what, 10 years? Yet, almost every time I drive, I see people doing this. How on earth will the bobbies enforce their new powers when they can’t quite manage their old ones yet?

<edit> and French peage is a pleasure to behold (mostly). Try averaging 80mph on a British road without driving like a complete moron.

Despite all this lauding of the French the last quote of that article by the guy from Road Safety Analysis Research Group suggests that GB’s motorways are potentially the safest in Europe?

You can tell what sort of state indicating is in by passing a lorry. Indicating to signal your intentions, then the lorry flashing you as you haven’t indicated after commencing the manoeuvre.

I think the flash actually means “you’re clear to pull in”.

What actually winds me up is a lorry sticking their indicator on when I’m alongside, which leads me to think that the driver hasn’t seen me.

ernie

If you need to ask you probably shouldn’t be driving.

Ok, you define it then. The point I’m making is that unless they do define it then it’s unenforceable with the exception of been handed a fine and believing it’s cheaper just to pay then argue (which for most of us it is) in court.

And it depends what you are driving too, as following someone when you are sat higher (m/c, van, lorry etc) you’ve a better view vs sat low in a sportscar.

Edric 64 – Member
If the middle lane hogs move over then there is no need to tailgate

I was tailgated this morning by a dick in a brand new Golf, while I was in the outside lane overtaking several lorries (2 lane stretch of carriageway) with a line of cars in front of me as far as the eye could see. He was weaving left and right, getting really close before dropping back a bit and then zooming back up to my car. Perhaps he didn’t like the fact that there was clear air between me and the car in front….?
It’s an average speed camera stretch too and the outside lane was all doing 70 anyway, so he was never going to make much progress once he got past me.
I pulled over to let him past and he zoomed up to the next car and proceeded to do the same.

When I pulled off about 5 miles further up the road from where this all started he was still in the outside lane about 2 car lengths ahead of me so all that braking, accelerating, weaving and generally being a knob had gained him about 8 metres in 5 miles.

And it depends what you are driving too, as following someone when you are sat higher (m/c, van, lorry etc) you’ve a better view vs sat low in a sportscar.

And probably a longer stopping distance (van/lorry) which means you should be even further back. 😉

Does that bit of the M1 still exist with the chevrons on it to indicate (2 of them) the distance that should be between cars? Always thought that was a good bit of educational road marking we need more of as it was normally a lot further than most people (inc me) kept between cars. Education as well as big stick seems a more sensible method to change behaviour.

@ br
The IAM guy interviewed on the beeb this morning said “a 2 second gap”

I thought there were cameras that measured the gap relative to the speed. Either that or my German friend is telling porkies, as he claims to have received rather a large fine for it as he was caught by them as he was approaching a car he was about to overtake.

Must be unlucky. See regular cameras in some places (Munich ring etc. maybe), and stock speed cameras in a few places (A8 is one). Other than that it’s just the Toll Collect gantries, which are only to catch HGVs that have failed to pay the “maut”, and even if they were for discipline enforcement in general, they are very very visible.

edit: and all cameras are front-facing too, so get a motorbike 😉

edit2: shed loads of cameras in Austria, and they just put in a whole load of new ones. And it feels really wrong sticking to a 100km/h limit for emissions reduction, after 4 hours on the German autobahn. Doesn’t stop the Russian Cayenne owners fast-laning it on an empty road at 160+.

“Road Safety Minister Stephen Hammond said: “Careless drivers are a menace and their negligence puts innocent people’s lives at risk.”” Surely if it’s putting other people’s lives at risk it’s dangerous driving and not just careless.

Interesting to see motorists actively APPROVING of new laws and fines.

Where are the usual “War On Motorists” lot?

Perhaps all today’s soundbites should be kept and played back to them in five years when they are complaining that these fines are just a “revenue raiser” or “stealth tax”. 😀

I’d be interested to know if these laws will apply on other roads with other vehicles, given that cyclists often get dangerously tailgated by impatient aggressive motorists?

While lane discipline in France is pretty good they tailgate like maniacs.

Its interesting that coverage of this announcement in the media seems to be focussing on middle lane drivers. Shows where the medial think people frustrations lie

I’d be interested to know if these laws will apply on other roads with other vehicles, given that cyclists often get dangerously tailgated by impatient aggressive motorists?

But of course we’ll want to preserve our right to tailgate another vehicles (other bikes in a group ride) and blame everyone else if in doing so we don’t see a hazard ahead 😉

Death due to Pothole on group ride

Cameras on gantries. With a big flashing “AB63CDE You Are Tailgating/Middle Lane Hogging”.

This is good.

In the future, every vehicle will be monitored remotely, and they will be able to talk to you in your car. “CF13 ABC stop being a dick, drop back ffs”

richmtb – Member
While lane discipline in France is pretty good they tailgate like maniacs.

Cause and effect (well really effect and cause). Because the lane discipline is better, they react very badly to knobby Brits wobbling along in the outside lane day dreaming for all they’re worth.

I’ve no doubt the road death rate is probably higher in France than the UK, it still remains largely a nicer place to drive long distance. It can be a pain though, choose your travel time badly and the Route Solais is a bastarde on 01/08 or try driving to a ski resort when Brit and French school holidays coincide….

There must be another France that I am yet to discover!

+1

French drivers are as or more rude, aggressive and crap as UK drivers.

What is needed isn’t new laws but more traffic police. Many traffic depts have been cut as traffic crimes are not usually measured targets.

A work colleague who was an appalling driver – speeding,tailgating, and texting – was cured after she got 6 pts within a week when she was caught speeding and using a handheld phone in separate incidents.

Given neither charge involved a camera but just real police enforcing the law she was very unlucky. The realisation that she was now one more unlucky week away from a ban worked wonders.

More traffic police and short bans after three crimes rather than the usual four under the current system would help.

Yeah tricky one that convert. I guess the difference is that a cyclist (generally) drafts another cyclist with their permission. Also in that situation it is the “tailgater” who is in the greatest danger.

The IAM guy interviewed on the beeb this morning said “a 2 second gap”

Ok, and if its raining and/or poor road surface?

Its next to impossible to define, except when the person behind actually hits the vehicle in front – then it was too close.

I am well aware of what is safe or not, having been a motorcyclist for +30 years its the only way I’ve stayed alive.

But for me its just more waffle.

Because the land discipline is better, they react very badly to knobby Brits wobbling along in the outside lane day dreaming for all they’re worth.

They tend to react very badly to Brits who move out legitimately to overtake slower drivers as well.
The roads IME are better the driving is IME worse. The reduced population spread over a greater area mean driving is better but get near a conurbation and tends to be more chaotic than the UK

surfer – Member
There must be another France that I am yet to discover!
+1

French drivers are as or more rude, aggressive and crap as UK drivers.

I think it depends where you drive. Paris=London and M25=Peripherique.

On the long peage runs to the south, the driving and discipline is generally very good (unlike the M1etc). IME of course.

The realisation that she was now one more unlucky week away from a ban worked wonders. having to go to court to plead hardship and carry on driving.

FTFY. 🙁

http://road.cc/content/news/44102-courts-let-nearly-half-motorists-who-accrue-12-or-more-penalty-points-continue
http://road.cc/content/news/81904-more-8000-drivers-have-12-or-more-points-their-licence-and-are-still-allowed

I suspect this law just makes it easier from a legal point of view to catch tailgaters. If you have to make a case for dangerous driving, that’s open to argument. If you have an explicit law then it’s much easier to prove someone’s guilt.

The French might have good lane discipline but they are shocking for what I call “French Formation Driving”. It’s kind of like synchronised swimming, looks nice but ultimately pointless.

They sit in a line of 5-6 cars all doing about 90mph all about 2 metres from each others bumper. I guess they do it to save on the gas ? For the mental challenge ?

I think it depends where you drive. Paris=London and M25=Peripherique.

Yes. French péage autoroutes are great, and easy to drive on. Everything else is a bit different to the UK, probably somewhat less safe too.

French towns are a special joy, a certain amount of care required in the general insanity when they are busy, not to mention the crazy Priorité a la Droite rule.

And Paris is a complete rule to itself. Things like the Arc de Triomphe, where traffic coming onto the roundabout has right of way, there are about 6 lanes of traffic but no lane markings and everyone still drives at full pelt, being in the traffic in Paris is quite an experience! The other thing about Paris is that because it’s small and the outskirts are mostly well dodgy, you’re far more likely as a visitor to be driving in the busiest (central) bits, whereas in London, you’d be an idiot to drive anywhere near places like Hyde Park Corner, and most people don’t.

The fines need to be raised to a level whereby it’s self-financing. £100 is nowhere near enough. Let’s start by adding a zero on to the end of that and we might see a change of behaviour.

As said before – unenforcable.

They can’t do mobile phones.

Will there also be the “It wasn’t me driving the car that morning” defence?

Quick question – how much time/money has been spent lobbying/passing these new laws through Parliament when the Police/CPS are being stripped right back to the bone?

I was assuming you’d have to be stopped by a patrol car and therefore this “defence” wouldn’t work.