• This topic has 60 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 7 years ago by andyl.
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  • New Standard -Metric Shock Sizing. April Fools?
  • alextemper
    Free Member

    Is all true. I have seen the shocks that Ben mentions with my own eyes on said desk.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Internally, are they any different? Or are they just longer monarchs with a bit more bushing overlap?

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    Great news everyone – Fox have just released their 2017 line-up

    Pinkbike

    All their shocks are only available in imperial measurements, which all we all know inches cannot be converted into mm 😉 stupid SRAM announcement aside – they’re not doing the longer-shock-for-the-same-travel sizing, so hurray for 2017 new bike owners, you can buy a Fox compatible frame, or a SRAM / Canecreek compatible frame, but choose carefully because you just know one side will back down at some point and drop their ‘standard’ and you’ll be left with a worth-less if not worthless frame and a tiny number of options when your shock dies. What a time to be alive.

    My prediction is this, and it’s based on the fact I’ve just bought a new bike and invariably this means it will become completely obsolete within 12 months.

    SRAM will pay the mags and websites more than Fox for advertising, they’ll declare slightly longer shocks as being the best thing since, the thing before sliced bread and Fox’s 2018 line-up will all be in mm – imperial shocks will be thrown in the bin with 26″ wheels, QR skewers, 1.5″ steerer tubes oh and probably minus/thin bikes or whatever they’re brand mountain bikes to make them seem old fashioned next to plus and fat bikes.

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    benpinnick
    Full Member

    Fox are apparently releasing ‘metric’ shocks as well as these, so the capitulation has already happened it would seem.

    Luckily, the new super deluxe is pretty freaking awesome, so whether you like metric or not, RS definitely has some very good products in the pipeline worth having when bikes that can take them become available. I expect a relatively small number of manufacturers will make the leap for MY2017 (production already underway for that year), but I think it will be pretty much the only sizing available on MY2018 bikes.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Something tells me fox are banking on people buying into quality kit and trying to draw a line in the sand. Sram produce unreliable trash that has the build quality of a hasbro toy. But the misanthrope tells me that fox are onto a losing game.

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    @benpinnick – so are Bird going Metric then?

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    All our brand new models will be metric yes. Right now only a limited number of tunes are ‘properly’ available so its not really practical to launch a metric bike today, but SRAM should have everything rolling in time for the early adopters (like Transition I am guessing) to be launching on the deluxe and super deluxe in late 2016.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Yeah screw bird if they go metric, will just go with Banshee as they will end up offering interchangable shock links.

    Build frames but can’t reshim a shock, eh?

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Although I can see why you’re pleased about the new shocks as you won’t have to engineer that awful rear flex out of your full susser.

    andyl
    Free Member

    I guess a lot of people never upgrade a shock, thinking of people who do not tinker and just go out and buy a new specialized, Trek, Giant every 5-10 years or so when the bike is knackered.

    Other people who do mess and change stuff will have to hope for people to bring out adapter kits or surely someone like Loco can tweak a shock with shims and then you might be able to use offset bushes to tweak the length a bit. You may lose a little bit of travel though.

    hopefully some of the smaller brands (eg Bird, Cotic etc) they will bring out a reasonably priced metric linkages to upgrade older models if needed. I guess the closest to 215×63 would be 230×65 so moving the linkage point slightly down and further back would (with my limited understanding) correct the situation. Single pivots probably screwed though and the big brands like Specialized, Trek etc probably wont give a crap about supporting last years model.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Really though, you’ll always be able to get a 900 quid Eleven Six etc in 200×57 – if you REALLY must change out your shock. Which I do, because my Monarch is a pile of steaming donkey balls that leaks air continuously like all my other ones did.

    I just really, really loathe Sram, their products and their buisness policy right now.

    Unfortunately, not many frames or bike builds (apart from top spec 5k carbon builds) come with Fox. Which is a shame as I’d rather have an ally frame, top spec Fox suspension over carbon coupled to Sram anyday. My old mans 2008 Fox 36 is perfect, since then I have been through Domains, Lruiks, a Totem and a Pike that have all shat themselves repeatedly.

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    @andyl you’re absolutely right. Our metric journey thus far is to find a way to make it work with the Aeris. Owners of Aerises will know through the owners group that there are viable metric cross overs onto the Aeris, but at the moment it’s a 1″ (Note the irony of imperial measurements) reduction in the travel…. not to say thats a bad thing, its a really awesome 125mm of travel as it happens!

    Originally when we hard from SRAM that they were moving to the new sizing the immediate answer was lets make that work on current models first and go from there. Unfortunately at that time we didn’t actually know what the final shock sizing would be and so enthusiasm outstripped reality. The additional length the shock needs to replicate the travel is _way_ beyond any kind of flip chip, hoojamaflip or other internet-troll inspired possibility at this time unless you want to change the way your bike works (in terms of travel, leverage or other factors), or the laws of physics, and end up with something that works the way someone would expect who already owned it… Or at least its very tricky. Or to put it another way, if you liked the way your bike worked before, there’s pretty much no way to strap a metric shock to it and make it just the same. That is of course not the same as making it different and better,

    So far, through testing and analysis, we’re really happy with the performance of the metric shocks at shorter travel ranges (i.e. getting 125mm from a 140/150 bike), but nothing in the as-designed 140-150 range right now. Its been interesting finding out things like the leverage ratios that work on the the new shocks, as they will allow us to set boundaries for the kinematics design in the future, but right now we’re not there on supporting a shock for a current 140/150 Aeris with a new linkage. We’ll of course keep working on that an hopefully deliver something soon enough 😉 Unfortunately although we’ve had the shocks best part of 6 months now, most of the work has been theoretical or out back on our secret test track, which I’ll be honest doesn’t put enough stress through the shocks to test end to end real word situations. Now the cat is out of the bag we’re accelerating that process and you’ll see more Birds with metric shocks on them at races etc. as we test out the various tunes via the team, and just us riding more terrain.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    So how come Transition supposdely managed to make a new link without at all affecting the leverage ratio. Or were all the reviews of the new Super Deluxe talking absaloute bollocks like one might expect from the bike industry?

    If Transition can do it, why can’t you?

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    Maybe transition could do it…. The sceptic in me says show me the shock curve. You cant do it on our design.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Fair enough, but I can’t take your word for it as I’m massively OCD with these things, so I’m going to have to chase the guy over at linkagedesign and my motorsports engineering buddies.

    The MTB industry is full of more bollocks than a used car salesmen, sorry.

    If you can’t do it though, thats your loss and a conversion of me or others over to either Transition or Banshee. Had enough of disposable shit in my life, computers and phones are enough to deal with. Quality engineering, good reliability, good service life and great customer service is what will grab me from now on.

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    I should point out I haven’t had a chace to look at the transtion linkage design so its not a slight, but I am generally sceptical of anyone that says they can just bash out a linkage… We’ve had to reduce/constrain the leverage progression on new designs to work with the new air cans, its not the same as the Debonair. Also, the mid-stroke rebound has been problematic for us as its not working the same as the old shock, so thats needed some custom tweaking that we’re not quite there on as yet either… we’ll get there though.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    You don’t have to get by on MM tunes, you could be one of the first companies out with a Metric bike. Get Flukes to work out a tune and then take the shocks apart yourselves before you assamble the bikes, charge a bit more to be one of the first. When you get decent tunes from Rock Shox, knock your prices back down.

    Maybe.

    I’m talking massive shit now, although I probably was before. Sorry Ben,

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    OMG. Actually, I am going to OMG at my use of OMG. I don’t think I’ve used it in public before. It deserves a mention.
    Yes, you are talking shit with bells on it. Sorry. We aren’t using MM tunes. no-one realistically uses base MM tunes, but you do get points for mentioning Tim Flooks. He’s great guy and heads up the SRAM team we work with.

    Tom_W1987
    Free Member

    Thats good to know!

    I’ve had bikes where they clearly didn’t even bother to do that in the past.

    benpinnick
    Full Member

    I’ve had bikes where they clearly didn’t even bother to do that in the past.

    SRAM are a different league from the rest in those terms. If you ever wonder why so many bikes have Rockshox/SRAM parts its not price or the service. SRAM are in my opinion, and its only one guy from a tiny bike company, absolutely second to none in terms of their support of our business or our product. I think I should tell you – because I think you’ll appreciate it, I have a dedicated guy in Germany (HI Torben!) who makes me custom shocks when I send him emails. Yes,,, I send him an email and say ‘I dont like x’ do something else…. and he does. Its awesome. Like 10*Tim Flooks all the time.

    andyl
    Free Member

    @ben: will quiz you over shocks (current imperial ones, I find it best to ignore new standards for a year or two) on Sat. I was wondering about the DB inline that Dan mentioned was coming in, might be a good future proofing option instead of the Monarch I was planning. The Stage does look interesting but I was planning on just going Monarch.

Viewing 21 posts - 41 through 61 (of 61 total)

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