More personal insults. You really are a very bitter and nasty man.
There is nothing to answer - you claim I say things I do not, you claim that me saying "contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts" actually means "has a negative effect unless it has EPS, "
Enough of the foreplay you guys and just get jiggy, you know you love each other really.
the pair of you need a slap.
edited
TandemJeremy - Member
More personal insults.
WTF do you expect when you respond like you have? Can you see how you come across?
You really are a very bitter and nasty man.
Not at all, I barely GAS About this crap, only just enough to give myself a laugh on a Monday night. Would quite happily have a laugh with you over a pint about it all if you were up for that.
There is nothing to answer - you claim I say things I do not, you claim that me saying "contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts" actually means "has a negative effect unless it has EPS, "
Please don't mis-quote me for your own ends...I said
You implied it .... even if you didn't my point still stands on what you said.
with a helmet strapped correctly and the retention system tight there is damn near no movement
even swinging on it..
Do you think there's any way out of this thread that won't leave both of these guys looking like raving lunatics?
Ah fook do I look like a loon already?
Do you think there's any way out of this thread that won't leave both of these guys looking like raving lunatics?
There just sorting through a few issues, normal service will resume in a day or two, been great reading.
Thanks lipseal, I'm glad my works finds an audience - but this is normal service 
aracer, I assume I'm always starting at rock bottom, only way I can go is up.
did you two go for a pint then?
He appears to have declined my invitation.
Wow, this is still kicking off 
Soooo, does anyone actually know anything about PPE for biking or are most of these :facts: just 'something I read somewhere'
I can't actually work out what the TJ roatation test is as the description is quite loose...
...but my simple old Specialized XC lid has almost zero movement in any plane when the straps and retention system are correctly fastened so I join the people who do not agree that a chinguard (on a correctl fitted and fastened helmet) will rotate sufficiently to hit your face.
I can't understand the argument that without EPS there is no protection. If this is correct then every helmet worn on every building site around the world is not providing any protection, however I would much rather a brick fell on my head wearing a hard hat than without.
but have you rotation tested your hardhat bigjim?
No?
Idiot. 
I can't understand the argument that without EPS there is no protection
That's because it's not an argument (objective, interactive discussion of established data) but a viewpoint(subjective, monologue exposition of third party opinion)
The only thing to remember is 'it's your head, protect it how you wish'
I'm fortunate enough to never have had a potentially life threatening head impact but my helmet has saved me from innumerous medium level injuries, mainly of the 'twatted in the face by an overhanging branch' variety and made several tumbles a 'dust yourself down' job rather than a 'ooooh that looks nasty' incident
but have you rotation tested your hardhat bigjim?
No?
Idiot.
No but I have 'tested' three helmets without face protection and been very glad of their presence. Been lucky not to land on my beautiful face yet.
I'm fortunate enough to never have had a potentially life threatening head impact but my helmet has saved me from innumerous medium level injuries
I've had one bad one and it wasn't much fun - I recommend sticking to the low flying bracnhes!
Hilldodger - the point is - and it is a fact - that the eps is the main mechanism that reduces the effects of hard impacts. At no point did I say it offers no protection without the EPS - what I actually said was
contains no EPS so will do little to take the energy out of impacts.This is why construction type helmets are not used. This is why a chinbar with no eps is limited in how well it will work as without the EPS the largest component of impact protection is absent.
How do helmets work?
Helmets are normally comprised of four elements; a rigid outer shell, a crushable liner, chin straps or a retaining system and fit or comfort padding. The rigid outer shell when present adds a load-spreading capability, and prevents objects from penetrating the helmet. It's kind of like an additional skull. The liner, usually made of EPS (expanded polystyrene) or similar types of materials absorbs the energy of an impact by crushing. The chin strap when properly buckled and adjusted along with the fit padding helps the helmet remain in position during a crash.
Helmets work kind of like a brake or shock absorber. During a fall or crash a head is traveling at a certain speed. Since the head has weight, and is moving there is a certain amount of energy associated with the moving head. When the helmet along with the accompanying head impact an unyielding object; a rock, a wall, a curb or the ground the hard shell starts by taking the energy generated by the falling helmet (head) and spreads it over a larger portion of the helmet, specifically the internal foam liner. The foam liner then starts to crush and break which uses up a lot of the energy, keeping it from reaching the head inside. Depending on how fast the head is traveling, and how big, heavy and immovable the object is the faster the head slows down, and the more energy is present. In short everything slows down really quickly. A helmet will effectively reduce the speed of the head by breaking and crushing which reduces the amount of energy transferred to the brain. The whole process take only milliseconds to turn a potentially lethal blow into a survivable one.
Snell foundation
http://www.smf.org/faqs.html#9
So by the same argument you are saying construction helmets do little to take the energy out of impacts?
Yes. They spread it around and the flexing will take some - but construction type helmets are designed for impacts are much lower energy that bicycle ones
Helmets designed for lesser impacts do not necessarily have foam inside. Some are just hard shells with a suspension headband that provides the fit and keeps some space inside for air to circulate. Construction helmets are of this type, and do a fine job when somebody drops a brick on your head or you bump hard against an overhanging steel beam. Just don't fall off a bicycle with one, since they will not handle the impact of falling on pavement.
Tj nothing in that excerpt discusses chin-guards.
energy absorption must be different in chin-guards.
+ the numerous points I made above that you are choosing to ignore.
Well I don't know much about the pointless bickering that is going on but I own a parachute and three other of my mates also bought one after having to take a rider buddy to A&E when his front wheel slipped off the boardwalk on one of the afan trails (wall or whites I forget which)
As he went down the side of his face scraped along the chicken wire put on it for grip and he is now scarred for life.
As far as I'm concerned it is a wise investment if you value your good looks and occassionally come off the bike. I'm surprised more manufacturers don't produce them.
You do feel like a tool wearing it though.
Yes. They spread it around and the flexing will take some - but construction type helmets are designed for impacts are much lower energy that bicycle ones
Yes, well done thats what I wanted you to pick up on - the hard material transfers most of the energy, and absorbs some, so what the face part of the Parachute does is transfer the energy from the chin into the rest of the helmet to be distributed and absorbed.
Aye bigjim - the energy has to go somewhere. Yes the parachute will be effective against small impacts. However the energy has to go somewhere - and a faceplant in a parachute with a high impact speed that energy will still go into the head somewhere as there is no eps getting crushed to actually absoeb the energy. The flexing of the hard shell will not absorb forces of the magnitude involved when you hit a tree flat out. Thats when you need the eps
Its difficult to see who's showing themselves up worst here, Al or TJ.
2 grown men battling out some pointless debate on the internet.....
oh dear 
Aye bigjim - the energy has to go somewhere. Yes the parachute will be effective against small impacts. However the energy has to go somewhere - and a faceplant in a parachute with a high impact speed that energy will still go into the head somewhere as there is no eps getting crushed to actually absoeb the energy. The flexing of the hard shell will not absorb forces of the magnitude involved when you hit a tree flat out. Thats when you need the eps
I don't think you can state anything about that without knowing how the chin guard part is mounted on the helmet - it might be quite well engineered so that the energy is transferred into the EPS and/or through the inner nylon cage effectively. My mate has one so I'll have a look at the weekend.
But anyway it is clear the helmet will provide face protection which is why people are buying them, and based on the users in this thread they do work.
Surely, a chin guard is not designed to work the same way as the rest of the helmet, otherwise it would be like a close fitting beard type thing of the shape that industrial designers called Oswald would sport? Which would clearly be ridiculous.
As I see it, the main inner shell of the helmet crushes when pressed betwixt your head and a hard surface (tree trunk/rock/frying pan) and the energy absorbed in crushing the polystyrene is what saves your noggin' from splitting open like a coconut.
The chin guard is designed not to deform, but to create a crash barrier between your face & the ground. Sure it'll deform a bit, but that is a by product of the impact.
The chin guard keeps your delicate Nivea soaked face away from the jagged hard bits that want to rip it to shreds. What happens to the energy is of secondary importance, as far as the chin guard is concerned - presumably the impact shunts the helmet & your head backwards/sidewards until the rest of you catches up/stops. Even if the helmet decides it wasn't put on properly & the chin guard hits your face as a result of the whole lot moving, then at least you are left with an interface which consists of face/plastic chinguard/rough, scrapy stuff, compared with face/rough, scratchy stuff.
A mate of mine has one and it saved his features quite well at Penmachno once when he sailed over the bars at speed. There was quite a lot of chin guard scrape-age, but his features remained intact. He is unwilling to repeat the crash with a normal helmet to compare the results, which quite frankly is a bit selfish, if you ask me.
Deal with it people, everyone is wrong other than TJ (of no ff helmet experience)!
I just don't see what TJ is trying to say, but he's ignoring me now anyway.
stumpy has put it well, I've lost the will for now.
I have a full face Casco Viper. I've slammed down a couple of times on to rocky surfaces.
Due to the helmet being there I had no injuries to my head or face.
This is fact, based on experience.
My head did not twist off, knock round, spin or otherwise whiplash.
Again fact.
Transfer of energy, my arse, I'd rather the chin guard hit the ground than my teeth.
This is fact, based on experience
That's the thing that 'gets me' about some peoples stance......
......someone posts based on their own direct experience but that's dismissed as 'anecdotal evidence, not peer reviewed' but something C'n'P from a website of unknown relevance or accuracy is :FACT:
So in the absence contributions by any experts on bike helmets &/or head injuries, let's leave the Google search button alone and agree that it's all down to personal choice
i loikes the way that when everyone on here does the TJrotational test, they do up the straps and adjust the retention device
nobody actually rides with their lid on properly in real life
I'm not reading all of this rant, but I got a Parachute as it covered more of the back of my head than anything else I could find.
but i don't really like the full-face bit, so am thinking of replacing it with Fox Flux/661 Recon etc.
This topic has been closed to new replies.
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