well you could argue Enduro is where past it DH racers go to retire.

I reckon it could end up being the opposite too, a slightly safer junior race to DH on slightly milder tracks, with cheaper bikes and less suppourt required.

I fully back Steve in doing this and bringing the UK series in line with European standards. Bear in mind that for Superenduro, back and knee protection are also compulsory.

I would hazard a guess that, for example the average SuperEnduro stage has more ‘gnar’ and elevation drop than an entire race of UKGE though.

They might be the same in name, but they are very different in experience.

50km round Afan in a full face sounds fun, or having to hump a rucksack around just to strap another helmet to.

Its not a big deal, UKGE you will need a FF helmet It will be part of the rules. So if I do any UKGE I will wear my full face, easy. Won’t stop me doing them.

The issue I have is with BC not UKGE. They have made a discussion for the enduro discipline as a whole but at a grassroots level the track/venues are and should be easier/fun. Just hope I won’t put off new riders to the discipline which could make it hard for local grassroots races to operate.

I know from experience at the QECP enduro we had 160 riders and 2 of them were wearing FF helmet. How many racing even owned FF?

Not sure what BC are trying to do but they don’t want to insure any of the enduros I have helped run. Not sure i can trust BC again, I tried in 2014 lots but every time they came up with a reason why they would not work with us.

Rant over!

Once again, this is not a BC decision.

True, but it’s a race, on timed technical sections with untimed transitions. What else do you expect it to be other than a series of linked DH runs? The alternative is an XC race without it’s USP of the climbs.

What I expect it to be is “enduro” not lots of timed DH runs, might as well use an uplift or BPW. Riding downhill then soft pedalling up fireroads just isn’t endurance to me.

See the Tracy Moseley interview at the Tweedlove enduro in the mag, she has it spot on & I think she has a little bit of experience on the mstter

I spoke to BC quite a bit back in 2012 or maybe 13 and the main thrust of it was, they had no idea what to do about enduro. They didn’t seem that sure what an enduro really was, trying to just treat it as a different sort of downhill race and it turned out a lot of their thinking was based on a nameless race organiser who’d told them that most riders at most races already wore full face helmets. They were holding out for DH-style line-of-sight marshalling too! Basically trying to come up with a set of rules without having attended any events or spoken to many race organisers. I think they were hoping for a UCI magic bullet. The last gravity minutes are from mid 2013 and it still just says something like “more representation for enduro is needed”.

I’m a bit sympathetic, I guess I could say I’ve done every sort of UK enduro from top to bottom and the only way one set of rules could adequately cover them all is if it was very tiered, ie have a set of rules for easy courses, a set of rules for harder courses, etc. But that just moves the complication from rule writing to rule enforcement. And that’s just one of the messy issues. Glad it’s not my job. So maybe they’ve just said, we don’t know what to do with this, it’s easier to not deal with it at all.

(this isn’t specifically a BC issue but maybe it is- if BC aren’t dealing with it, that’s a big deal in itself, no? It’s kind of what they’re for…)

Maybe I’m basing my understanding of Enduro as a discipline on my experience racing in Europe before it was big over here in the UK, but I’d describe the discipline exactly as “multiple DH runs linked by untimed pedal powered transitions”. The DH element of it therefore makes the fullface helmet/knee/back protection thing more necessary.

Sadly the UK misused the term in place of “Marathon” and this has continually confused people, and coupled with this weird mental block British riders have around FF or “downhill” (“that’s not for people like us”), we end up where we are.

Exactly this.

Maybe its because we dont have the terrain to do it properly or maybe its just that weird British thing of having to be different but on the continent where Enduro started it is as Andyrm said multiple downhill runs connected with untimed fire road climbs/transitions.

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race and what you end up with is a timed section of flattish single track….of course your normal piss-pot lid is going to be OK for that…but that isnt Enduro….so when someone like Parr tries to push things forward and model his series on the original european format (where most riders wear FF) he gets a backlash from people who once rode an ‘enduro’ at Swinley and state that a FF isnt necessary.

rOcKeTdOg – Member

What I expect it to be is “enduro” not lots of timed DH runs, might as well use an uplift or BPW. Riding downhill then soft pedalling up fireroads just isn’t endurance to me.

Its not an Endurance race.

This is where confusion is coming from, people are reading Enduro and thinking Endurance….Marathon races are for Endurance.
Enduro is about technical predominantly downhill sections that are timed….thats it…its actually really simple, the original French races aimed for no more than 15% climbing in a timed stage.
Bringing Mosely into the sport is a red herring, she is relatively new to a scene that was being raced ten years before she moved across from DH.

They have made a discussion for the enduro discipline as a whole but at a grassroots level the track/venues are and should be easier/fun. Just hope I won’t put off new riders to the discipline which could make it hard for local grassroots races to operate.

Maybe true, but maybe that’s a marketing thing, maybe rather than trying to create races for the lowest common deonminator both in fitness and skill, new riders should be encouraged into XC races if that’s what the courses are.

If we’re going to tell new people with no fitness that they can enter a race that’s neither a challange to their fitness nor their skill, then they won’t turn up because no one else will. Either that or Enduro will become the sportive of MTBing.

I’ve done one enduro in a full face (Caersws) and one in my trail lid (Eastridge). Both were Mini Enduros and whilst they recommended a FF at Caersws, they didn’t for Eastridge. But plenty of folk wore FF on both.

At the end of the day, a mandatory FF for UKGE isn’t going to put people off. I’d be more inclined to suggest that the step up to UKGE in fitness terms compared to more grass roots level enduros would mean wearing a FF all day is the least of people’s worries; if you ain’t fit, you’re going to struggle anyway!

The broad use of the word enduro only causes more confusion in the UK. I did the CYB “enduro” at the weekend and I can safely say that certainly 90% of the people I encountered wouldn’t know what hit them if they entered a proper enduro.

If there is no BC mandate stating the use of FF then the simplest (and most likely) way of solving the issue is for organizers to advise the use of a FF for their events. If UKGE want to make it mandatory, so be it but as I implied, the calibre of the rider demographic likely to enter is such that they will either already own, or be able to invest in a FF anyway.

deviant – Member

when someone like Parr tries to push things forward and model his series on the original european format (where most riders wear FF) he gets a backlash from people who once rode an ‘enduro’ at Swinley and state that a FF isnt necessary.

I was there when Steve came to Innerleithen and discovered that enduro doesn’t mean riding down a red route climb 😆 He’s caught up a long way since mind.

I appreciate it fits your argument but dismissing this as a backlash from johnny-come-latelys and ignorant novices makes no sense. At every level, you can see pros and amateurs voting with their heads. Does Chris Ball not understand what an enduro is, or how about both of our current enduro world champions?

weeksy – Member
At the likes of Hamsterley UKGE, where the stages are a long way from being wild
MAybe for you… maybe not for the newbies to the sport….

In which case I’d have to question why newbies think the UK national series is a good place to start?

hels – Member
Once again, this is not a BC decision.

From Steve Parr Here

“Its not “a Steve Parr wanting it to be official thing, so lobbying British Cycling for it” its going to be a BC rule and I’m just giving our Customers a heads up before it becomes official.”

Sounds like BC to me.

I’ve read with interest some of the replies, especially the 1’s of the people hiding behind forum names.
Butterbean, come on give me your full insight into why I’m “pretty obtuse”?
Mike Smith, still comes on here and slates UKGE, last round he raced was Kielder 2011.
There is so much going on behind the scenes with Enduro, BC, UCi, rules, tiered structure, National champs, adoption of format etc…….
The UK is way behind Europe with its Enduro structure, about 6 years I think, things will evolve as the UKGE series has, amazing timing for past 2 years, bigger sponsors, prize money, the list goes on.
British Cycling are extremely concerned about Enduro and were its headed, here is the scenario for you –
BC coordinator now has 35 events to sanction for endure in 2014, of which 32 rounds he knows nothing about and 5+ organisers he has never worked with.
What would you do?
Myself, Charlie and BC have to make decisions on information gleaned over 4 years of organising UKGE, we will make mistakes and rightly stand against a wall to be shot at, but the Full face rule is definitely not a mistake.
We await full clarification on testing as to which 1’s are good to go.
I do like the idea of “Areas on transition were they could be removed” 🙂

The UK is way behind Europe with its Enduro structure, about 6 years I think, things will evolve as the UKGE series has, amazing timing for past 2 years, bigger sponsors, prize money, the list goes on.

Totally agree Steve. The global development of the discipline has driven more capable bikes that are faster and able to hit more dangerous terrain at greater speed than before, so to skimp on protective gear in the face of higher speeds and greater risks seems reckless at best. Factor in the tragic events of late and insurers/landowners getting scared as a result, and it would be all too easy for the UK’s development to stall.

Additionally, if British riders are to develop and make an impact on the world circuit, they need to be coming through the ranks with similar setups – that means tracks, kit and everything else, or else they have another set of hurdles when they step up to European/World events.

That’s exactly my way of thinking too!

Part of the problem is that BC are very hazy in their regs

They give a minimum standard for helmets, that I think every helmet sold in the UK has to meet anyway
They say a ff is required for DH but don’t give any minimum cert as they don’t want to imply that any test garuantees the effectiveness of that protection , I’m guessing that’s covering their arse legally

The UCI DH regs seem to say the same thing, but their website really is obtuse 😉

The only DH cert at the moment is astm f1592 and that doesn’t require a chin guard but will test it if present.

Mike Smith, still comes on here and slates UKGE, last round he raced was Kielder 2011.

Cheers Steve if you think that is slating then you need to toughen up princess 🙂
I was responding to the comments that it’s always been about DH tracks and the timing has been amazing all the way.
I gave up on the 2011 series and stuck with DH and the Mega instead, 2012 I emigrated. Next Enduro will probably be the EWS over in NZ if the entries work out.
Anyway cheers for saying hello.

Perhaps there are some crossed comms – I heard from a very good source that BC will not be regulating Enduro as of 2015. If that is true, I fail to see how they can rule on helmet use.

I guess we wait for the minutes of the BC MTB Commission meeting to be published.

I’m more interested in why innerleithen mountain bike racing are pulling out of events next year? Money, hassle at events, lack of enthusiasm. Where will this leave Enduro racing in that area and what about the Scottish Enduro series next year? No fuss could step in but with them being based up in FW this years organisation worked really well with IMBR taking the southern events and NF doing the north.

(Apart from that mega crabbit IMBR commisaire who was just dying for a chance to DQ someone)

Factor in the tragic events of late and insurers/landowners getting scared as a result, and it would be all too easy for the UK’s development to stall.

are spectators going to have mandated safety equipment as well?

Where will this leave Enduro racing in that area and what about the Scottish Enduro series next year?

TweedLove crew have some plans for events around the valley in 2015 – should be some news soon. (In addition to EWS.) Neil

All I want to know is does mean I can demand a refund for my ixs RS enduro helmet as now it is obviously not enduro? Despite being enduro green.

Boardinbob

I am sure there will be plenty of people keen to continue running great Enduros in the valley – as Neil says above.

It is not really for me to say what will happen with SES, although as it has been such a huge success I can’t see why it wouldn’t continue.

Maybe all the Scottish Enduro organisers should get around a table and bang something out ?

I for one hope the SES continues next year since my 1st one is the last of the season next month and really want to do the whole lot next year.

Hels

Now there’s an idea. TweedLove folk are up for it.
Anyone else?

jam bo – Member

are spectators going to have mandated safety equipment as well?

I saw a commissaire telling a rider off for pushing along a fire road with no helmet on. Felt like asking where his helmet was, since they were both partaking of the extreme activity of fireroad walking 😆

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race

All hail the god of pigeon holing, I hope you go to every event to certify the terrain they are using appropriate for the label they’re applying? 🙄

What about World Cup DH courses being ridden on ‘enduro’ bikes? Presumably they too have “no business” conducting that sort of race.

I’m still struggling with Enduro, so here’s what it sounds like:-

It’s downhill for Vets & Masters, with walking in between runs, where the winner is the helmet manufacturers?

What about World Cup DH courses being ridden on ‘enduro’ bikes? Presumably they too have “no business” conducting that sort of race.

Exactly….and i think you’ll find thats why Pietermaritzburg has been dropped for 2015, most of the DH riders interviewed this year are looking forward to getting back to steep and technical tracks next season.

Just to clarify…IMTBR’s future is still undecided, but there will defiantly be a SES in 2015…

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race

small organisers? No need to take the piss out of our height.

Its not always about the venue its what you do with it. In the south east QECP is the only venue/organisers that run races not saying we could hold a EWS round but what about a grassroots race? Something people can try before stepping up to the UKGE then the EWS.

Here what enduro-mtb thought:
http://enduro-mtb.com/en/race-report-grass-roots-racing-queen-elizabeth-country-park/

We have a great DH scene at that level with 17 races this year including 3 series.

I wish someone else would run Enduro’s in the south east so I could some, again it would be at a grassroots level.

Maybe all the Scottish Enduro organisers should get around a table and bang something out ?

😯

Think I’m sorted whatever happens*…

*as long as the chin strap doesn’t have to fasten

The UK scene at the moment has jumped on the bandwagon and small organisers are putting on Enduros where they have no business holding that type of race

So a my enduro is bigger than your enduro problem? Why care, people are organising things that are popular. Good on them, like football it could be the simple version of the sport where you use what you have and get on with it.

Parr – Member

The UK is way behind Europe with its Enduro structure

This comment got me to thinking about what’s really important- yes we’re in a different place, but is it behind, for anyone but the pros? Or is it just different? Totally massive essay btw, I wrote it at work.

The joy of UK enduro is the way it’s grown from the bottom up- we didn’t just import a european format, it’s inspired by what’s gone before but adapted for the UK and shaped by our venues and our riders and our organisers. Quite a lot of folks in this thread have said “In Italy they…” and honestly, I don’t give a **** what they do in Italy. Not that we can’t still learn from elsewhere, but we should never do anything because “that’s how they do it” or “they’re ahead of us, we’ve got to catch up”.

Meanwhile, Enrico Guala comes to Scotland and says “this participation is what we’re missing in Italy- how do we take this home?”. If we learn one thing from the founder of superenduro, let’s learn that, and not sacrifice the thing we have which he envies.

I appreciate that from an industry point of view, the ideal sport is the one you watch on telly and read about in magazines, that pays salaries and creates sales and rockstars. But from our point of view, the ideal sport is the one we actually do.

The reason enduro took off isn’t that we wanted to emulate anyone else or do what they were doing on the continent; we weren’t out to be Jerome Clementz. We didn’t really know what the hell an enduro was til we did it! I can only assume the organisers were shitting themselves. And it didn’t take off because it was the latest cool thing in the media either, they were trailing far behind.

It took off because people tried it and loved it, and raved to their mates about it, and people kept putting them on. Where it changed direction, it was because that was where it wanted to go, not because that was where it had to. A natural thing, driven by the enthusiasm of riders and inspired organisers. The cliche that “it’s just like riding with your mates” is what defines it, and imo anything that takes us away from that is bad for the sport.

Ironically enduro is in a place that downhill would love to be, with great participation and buzz, new events, sold out races. Steve commented that a problem BC faces is too many new events! A problem DH and XC would love. And yet enduro seems to be moving towards where downhill has ended up, with elitism and barriers to entry and a big head on a skinny body. It’s at risk of becoming “not for us” to most people just as downhill has. And I don’t just mean expense (though that’s a concern). As soon as the image of enduro becomes pros, impossible courses, special bikes and full face helmets it becomes “not what we do”, something you read about other people doing.

Some folks in this thread are all about telling us what enduro shouldn’t be. Your venue’s too flat, your tracks aren’t radsick enough, you’re doing it wrong. Thou shalt not. UK enduro’s been a fresh start of we shall in an otherwise pretty moribund scene- it’d never have happened if the shall nots had been in charge.

That “too easy” “too flat” “not proper” local enduro you sneer at is giving people great days on their bikes, getting people together, getting people racing who don’t race… It’s not superenduro, but why on earth should it be? Would the people racing be happier if it was? More likely, they’d not be racing at all. Would the sport be better off for that?

UK enduro’s not downhill, it’s not superenduro and it’s not formula one, we should nurture what it is- inclusive, homegrown, representative and adaptable, and can still knock the socks off the world’s best and have a double world champion along the way. If the top end’s to thrive it has to be as part of a thriving sport, not at the expense of the “lesser” events which it owes its entire existence to. EWS recognises the variety of world enduro; why should UK enduro do less? If “progression” is desirable, it’ll come.

If we start accepting ideas like “enduro has to be super hard”, “enduro is something you do in a full face”, then we’re back to square one. Why on earth would we limit it to be less than it’s already proven it can be? Why would you make your contribution telling people what they can’t do? Why would we risk a single thing that we already have, in order to “catch up” with an international scene that 99 out of 100 enduro riders will never have any contact with other than in a magazine, and which the 1/100 can already be part of?

Anyway. That’s what I think. The strength of UK enduro is the big batallions, not the best shots.

“I have a dream” 🙂

…A song to sing

Northwind +1

People are organising grass roots events here in Tassie now, it’s a good thing.

Well said northwind.

Exactly….and i think you’ll find thats why Pietermaritzburg has been dropped for 2015,

and having spotted that it’s most likely got a lot more to do with money than anything else. People acquire the rights to hold the races.